skeeter3 Wrote:Blackmacros, being a jobless college student as well, I am looking at adding a little KO2001 to my study during this last month of summer before school starts again. I posted earlier with the successful results I got from using this method with RTK. My problem with KO2001 is the large vocab wall. I opened the book, looked at the first few sentences, and was floored. I would like your, and others', input on how you dealt with the steep curve of the vocab please. How did you remember all that vocab, especially when you're adding ~200 sentences per day? Thanks!

Nii87 Wrote:Vos, I tried repetition for awhile but I started to get confused between similar looking kanji. Didn't you?

meolox Wrote:Thanks blackmacros

vosmiura Wrote:It will show you the pain you have waiting for you in the future from adding so many cards

vosmiura Wrote:It's "Kanji and success graphs".

I just updated it to show average due per day when you choose long periods, to smooth out noise.

alyks Wrote:Boy did I come in late. It might be a bit dated by a couple of weeks, but Ghinzdra doesn't know what he's talking about. The SRS is not an immutable system of godly memory requisition which, if gone against, cease to function on all levels until the offense has been corrected.

Sometimes, putting in a sentence which you don't fully understand will allow you to grasp it. Going through math problems proofs you don't understand from different angles over and over again will allow better understanding as well.

Long sentences are a fact of life. The difference between vocabulary words and sentences is to understand the context. If you shorten a sentence to the point where it loses context while trying to get it to qualify as a "sentence", then you're doing it wrong. Understand the reason behind why shorter sentence are generally better, and you can make the decision on a daily basis.

Thirdly, the SRS is almost entirely useless. But in order to see my argument, you have to understand the context with which I present it: Namely, the rise of efficiency in pre-mined sentences, subs2srs and the very thought of workflow within learning the language. I submit that these efficiency oriented approaches to learning a language will not hold the test of time.

It is difficult to keep up a system so mundane.

Reaching thousands of cards in your system, while quite the feat, I do not think is the primary reason for your increased skill level. Let's consider the effect of Khatzumoto's site, the koohii community, Krashen's theories and an overconfidence in the SRS. While all of these stress the importance of such things as input before output, sentences are better than vocabulary, headphones on all the time, etc., there is a secondary effect to it all. Reinforced by the community here, there are many among us who have been involved in a breathtaking inspiration. The unshakable belief, which I admit to have been seduced by as well, that learning Japanese is not only possible, but easy if the system is followed. But what is the system? That is what we still argue and debate over endlessly today. The SRS workflow, the "correct" method of collecting sentences, the efficiency in using pre-mined sentence, the efficiency in using such things as subs2srs are all a part of the system.

But after weeks, months, or even years, many of us fall. That is not to say we were not dedicated enough, we were. It was simply a matter of sustainability. Is this system, in all of its glorious perfection, really a sustainable solution? If you examine the methods of Khatzumoto, Krashen, Antimoon etc., you will find that while the outside semantics, the details, change somewhat, the internal system they preach stays the same. This means not that they have a perfect system which requires the same interpretation as something like the Bible is thought to require, but rather that their systems are not those created out of imitation. They are created with a personal customization which is simply not within reach of the rest of us.

But, to get back to my original point, there was a second factor beyond the methods. That factor was one that had us dedicate so much time to our methods, to our Japanese. It was in this dedication with which we were able to triumph. With this, even the most imperfect system will still reach its goal. The reason our systems tend to be unstable, is precisely because we get caught up in the system. We feel as if we need to do things right, we trip up over mistakes and try to refine them. Even going so far as to dedicate more time to refining the method than putting it into practice.

The idea of SRS workflow, laws and the like is ridiculous. Consider instead the exploration of Japanese, the literature and media. You will reach your goal of fluency despite the naysayers, as these are the things which you desire. This idea of maintaining an efficient and perfect system is a fallacy and must be discarded. Right or wrong you move forward and learn not by what the others tell you, but by your own experiences.

Quote:Sometimes, putting in a sentence which you don't fully understand will allow you to grasp it.

Quote:It is difficult to keep up a system so mundane.

Quote:The idea of SRS workflow, laws and the like is ridiculous. Consider instead the exploration of Japanese, the literature and media.

vosmiura Wrote:You may be interested in checking the "Kanji and success graphs" plugin, "Estimated minimum due cards" graph. It will show you the pain you have waiting for you in the future from adding so many cards .

alyks Wrote:Thirdly, the SRS is almost entirely useless. But in order to see my argument, you have to understand the context with which I present it: Namely, the rise of efficiency in pre-mined sentences, subs2srs and the very thought of workflow within learning the language. I submit that these efficiency oriented approaches to learning a language will not hold the test of time.

It is difficult to keep up a system so mundane.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:You may be interested in checking the "Kanji and success graphs" plugin, "Estimated minimum due cards" graph. It will show you the pain you have waiting for you in the future from adding so many cards .

This is a little offtopic, but oh well. First, thanks for your work, the plugin works really great and especially the Kanji over time graph is motivating like hell. But actually, the first two graphs are the ones I really need while I hardly ever look at the success rate graphs.. yet they still take their time to load. I know hardly anything about coding and stuff, but is there a way to disable the graphs you don't need by commenting out part of the code?

vosmiura Wrote:You can comment out/delete all the lines under where it says "# success graphs".