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+--- Thread: Re-examining your SRS workflow (/thread-3447.html)
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Hashiriya - 2009-07-07
i study KO2001 with smart.fm and watch justin.tv on my other display... sometimes i listen to music or podcasts in the background... I can understand a good portion of the anime i watch now.. my output is still in it's baby steps though, i'm sure it will all come together in the end no problem when i get done with KO2001 and focus on a lot of reviews with new vocab added to the mix on Anki...
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Elphalpo - 2009-07-07
blackmacros Wrote:I haven't actually delved too deep into other contexts yet. My plan was to finish *all* of the textbook type stuff as quickly as possible and then diving into the funThat's pretty much my plan as well. I tried immersing myself in native Japanese media like lots of others here do, but I found it tedious and totally unfun, and it didn't feel like I was learning much. As a result, I decided to spend a few months doing some hardcore sentence mining to develop a nice solid base from which I could comfortable transition to "real" Japanese.
stuff.
Some people here seem to be afraid that pre-made sentences sound unnatural and studying them won't lead to a good understanding of real Japanese, but based on my experience so far, that doesn't seem to be the case. Every once in a while on a lark I'll browse some Japanese web site like TBS news or Wikipedia and I'll be amazed at how much more I can understand than I could just a few days ago. Pre-made sentences may not be the best model for output, but as long as they come from a good source the vocab/grammar usage seems to be pretty much the same as real Japanese. But the real test will come in a couple weeks when my hardcore sentence mining phase ends and my hardcore manga/anime/drama/news phase begins, so I'll let you all know how it works out in case anyone is thinking of doing something similar.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - ore_wa_ecchi - 2009-07-08
is my progress slow?
i've been doing it for almost 3 weeks and i know almost 400 with 80% retention... problem is i think i have atleast 100 with stories already.. dang.... i don't know if i'm already having trouble.... T__T
Re-examining your SRS workflow - mafried - 2009-07-08
Elphalpo Wrote:As a result, I decided to spend a few months doing some hardcore sentence mining to develop a nice solid base from which I could comfortable transition to "real" Japanese.There will be no comfortable transition, I'm afraid. Having a solid grasp of grammar and vocabulary will help, of course, but you'll still find yourself in over your head at first. I highly recommend playing native media in the background while you do other things, and just not worry about understanding it. You're not supposed to at first (but without even trying the audio will start to become clear, much like a highly technical conversation in your native language where the outline of what's being said is clear even if you don't understand the vocab used).
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Tobberoth - 2009-07-08
Agreed with mafriend. Getting a solid foundation is a good idea, but eventually you're going to have to take that final step and it's ALWAYS a pain in the ass. IMO, it's a good idea to start as soon as possible with real Japanese, regardless of how little one understands. Not spend TOO much time on it (time spent on things you don't understand = time wasted, usually), but enough to get used to it. Listening to native media, like mafried said, is a great opening. Reading Japanese websites is good as well, using rikaichan if it helps (don't rely on it too much though).
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Hinode - 2009-07-08
Yeah, right now I actually spend more time SRSing the first volume of KO than I spend on reading real Japanese (I listen to Japanese music a lot though and watch j-dorama), but I'll continue this way until done with the first KO book. SRSing itself may not be as fun, but it makes the reading I do so much more enjoyable.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-08
While I agree that there is never going to be a comfortable transition, I do have to say that KO2001 is probably as close as you can get. Just a small anecdote: I've mined the first 2 pages of the Haruhi light novels and, as an experiment, looked up *every* single word I didn't know. I ended up with dictionary sentences for around 50 new words. Then I decided to focus on KO2001. I'm at kanji 700 now and I have now learned from KO all but 2 or 3 of the words I needed to look up from Haruhi (the ones about psychic stuff mostly). If I had read it now, instead of before KO, I would barely have needed to look up anything. Pretty decent for a textbook-type resource if you ask me
Re-examining your SRS workflow - mafried - 2009-07-08
blackmacros, your experiences are in line with most people here. I think it's fair to say that KO2001 is an extremely comfortable transition into full Japanese literacy. However the problem of understanding speech is something different. Only immersion will get you results here, and I recommend starting as soon as possible.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-08
mafried Wrote:blackmacros, your experiences are in line with most people here. I think it's fair to say that KO2001 is an extremely comfortable transition into full Japanese literacy. However the problem of understanding speech is something different. Only immersion will get you results here, and I recommend starting as soon as possible.Ah fair enough. But I've got that area covered to thankfully. Constant 24/7 loops of Pokemon, IWGP, Trick, Tiger & Dragon, all my anime gives me plenty of immersion.
I don't think there is any functional difference between me going through KO2001 and somebody else mining words from their immersion environment though. As long as the person doing KO has an immersion environment in place, they're doing the exact same thing as the sentence miners-looking up new words and learning them; they're just using a different frequency list (KO List vs Your Favourite Show's Frequency List). There's no difference between me hearing 目指す in pokemon and looking it up, or learning it from KO2001.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - activeaero - 2009-07-08
Great thread. This has finally motivated me to do something I've been meaning to try for quite a while now.......getting up earlier. This week I have been waking up about 2hrs earlier and jumping straight into Anki. It has made a massive difference in the amount of cards I can tolerate in one go and I've been adding about 2-3 times as many cards as normal. It really is amazing how much of a difference a fresh mind makes.
For reference my old routine was to knock out most of my cards in the evening hours of work and once I got home. I work evenings and am usually able to finish up all of my routine office work within the first few hours leaving the rest of the night for studying. That being said it has been such a mental drain. The first part of the night I usually start out ok but then my performance drops off like a rock.
The only thing now is just adjusting my sleep schedule. My body isn't quite use to going to bed 2hrs early so once that settles in I'm sure the results will be even better.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - bombpersons - 2009-07-09
blackmacros Wrote:May I ask where you managed to get the pokemon episodes? All I can find are dub...mafried Wrote:blackmacros, your experiences are in line with most people here. I think it's fair to say that KO2001 is an extremely comfortable transition into full Japanese literacy. However the problem of understanding speech is something different. Only immersion will get you results here, and I recommend starting as soon as possible.Ah fair enough. But I've got that area covered to thankfully. Constant 24/7 loops of Pokemon, IWGP, Trick, Tiger & Dragon, all my anime gives me plenty of immersion.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-09
bombpersons Wrote:I just did a google search for one of the episode's names (in japanese) and found it again. Try googling "togepi wa dare no mono torrent"blackmacros Wrote:May I ask where you managed to get the pokemon episodes? All I can find are dub...mafried Wrote:blackmacros, your experiences are in line with most people here. I think it's fair to say that KO2001 is an extremely comfortable transition into full Japanese literacy. However the problem of understanding speech is something different. Only immersion will get you results here, and I recommend starting as soon as possible.Ah fair enough. But I've got that area covered to thankfully. Constant 24/7 loops of Pokemon, IWGP, Trick, Tiger & Dragon, all my anime gives me plenty of immersion.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Zorlee - 2009-07-09
I´m now using this "method" for my last 600 Kanji, 100 kanji a day.
Did 100 today, no prob... Took me about 4 - 4 1/2 hours. Usually I´ve used 2 hours on 23-25 kanji. Twice the speed, so now I´m just pushing through!
Will be finished by monday! =)
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-09
Zorlee Wrote:I´m now using this "method" for my last 600 Kanji, 100 kanji a day.Yay! Glad to hear its working for others
Did 100 today, no prob... Took me about 4 - 4 1/2 hours. Usually I´ve used 2 hours on 23-25 kanji. Twice the speed, so now I´m just pushing through!
Will be finished by monday! =)
Btw I'm sick of typing "new method" and "old method" so I'm going to start referring to this as 'alternate focus SRS'ing'
EDIT: As for my progress with alternate focus SRS'ing, its been almost a week and I've been able to manage 750 reviews a day + adding 50 kanji (195 sentences). I can't believe how much of an impact such a tiny change can make.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Asriel - 2009-07-09
Zorlee Wrote:I´m now using this "method" for my last 600 Kanji, 100 kanji a day.I'm hoping I can do this for my final 500 (RtK, not KO).
Did 100 today, no prob... Took me about 4 - 4 1/2 hours. Usually I´ve used 2 hours on 23-25 kanji. Twice the speed, so now I´m just pushing through!
Will be finished by monday! =)
Some of my friends are going out of town for the weekend, so perhaps I'll have entire days just to myself and my studies. Of course, it may not take this long, but hey, if I can finish, that's what I'm looking forward to.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - Zorlee - 2009-07-09
Blackmacros - GREAT work man! Inspiring stuff! My goal is to finish RTK, Tae Kim and KO2001 before christmas, and because of this stuff, it looks realistic! =)
Asriel - Yes, I´m doing it with RTK myself at the moment! I wasn´t talking about KO2001 - 100 Kanji a day in KO2001 would be... Dare I say impossible? =)
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-09
Zorlee Wrote:Blackmacros - GREAT work man! Inspiring stuff! My goal is to finish RTK, Tae Kim and KO2001 before christmas, and because of this stuff, it looks realistic! =)*Slap* Don't say that word.
Asriel - Yes, I´m doing it with RTK myself at the moment! I wasn´t talking about KO2001 - 100 Kanji a day in KO2001 would be... Dare I say impossible? =)
100 a day would be hard(er) but not impossible. I get up at 9:30 and and I can add 60 kanji by 5 o'clock (usually stop at 50 though. I like round numbers...). If I got up at 7 instead I'd be able to add a 100.
I don't want to though because, finishing it in 3 more days instead of 6 isn't a big enough benefit to outweigh the extra reviews and stress.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-09
IceCream Wrote:when you go into anki, and it says "today reviewed x cards in y minutes"... what does yours say?Yesterday it was 714 cards in 3.1h. I believe that 714 is inclusive of reviews of newly added cards (~200) so I probably did around 500 actual reviews.
You must have an amazing memory!
While my memory was pretty good already, I think most of the credit goes to Anki.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-10
IceCream Wrote:that actually seems quite good for the amount of new cards your doing each day. (even though that sounds mental)I set Anki to "show failed cards soon". I tend to get a max of 10 cards in the fail pile at any one time this way, and I just keep whittling them down.
What are your thoughts on the best way of dealing with failed cards? Do you chuck em straight back in, or leave them to the end, or the next day? cos, with 200 new cards, i think id be getting towards 400-500 reviews per day of just these!
hmm, maybe yours are too... for me, the amount of reviews i have roughly correspond to the amount of new cards i enter. e.g. today, (all week consistently added around 75 new cards per day, 78 new reviews tomorrow, it said. Same on my K0 deck, 25 new cards a day, 30 reviews. But my end screen usually says ive done more reviews than this, probably because of fail reviews.
If you can find a way to show them, i think it'd be really interesting to see your anki graphs for the time you've been doing this!
I'll post pictures of my graphs etc once I've finished (should be about 6 days from now)
Re-examining your SRS workflow - FutureBlues - 2009-07-10
I add close to 100 cards a day, and as such, my reviews typically look something like this:
Yesterday 757 cards reviewed in 1.9h. (There was spillover yesterday due to a large amount of cards added and a bit left over from my lazy weekend.)
Today 269 cards reviewed in 45.9m.
94.8% correct (255 of 269)
95.2% correct mature (20 of 21)
This includes kanji production cards that look like the following:
Question: しん学（する）to advance academically, to move to a higher school, etc.
Answer: 進学（する）
By limiting the question to a very small amount of production information, I get the following benefits:
1. Reading practice-- If I can't read or recall the reading for the entire compound as a unit, I fail the card, regardless of whether or not I was able to write the kanji it was testing. This reinforces individual kanji readings to the point where I can produce them when seeing new words and also helps drill in the compound for when I hear it in conversation.
2. Compacting meaning. Since I see the English definition every time I read the compound, I find that it usually sticks in my head well enough to produce it when the time comes. I supplement this by both sentences containing compounds, as well as vocabulary cards (again, recognition) where I have to read the compound and produce the English meaning. The English meaning on these "hybrid-reading" cards is necessary to clarify which kanji should be written for the corresponding kana due to the large amount of homophones in Japanese.
3. Kanji production. I've replaced my RtK cards by this method and I no longer drill from keyword to kanji since I go over the stories in my mind every time I write kanji for these production cards.
The rest of my cards in the deck are reading production in the form of sentences, along with vocabulary cards where I test the reading and English meaning of words I've studied or had trouble with.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - vgambit - 2009-07-12
This is on some wax on, wax off Mr. Miyagi shit. I like it. I'll try it tomorrow at work.
Update: Tried it out at work. I had plenty of interruptions and times when I had to actually work (I usually get plenty of downtime, but this was just one of those days), but I managed to review 60 kanji and add 30 new ones. It's insane. However, since I still have 306 reviews due + the 30 new cards, I think I'm gonna start tomorrow by reviewing the kanji I learned today. After that, I'll learn 15 new kanji (using kanji lite so I can get this phase over with, to return to another day, because I was supposed to be done learning RTK from January), then do the 30 reviews/15 additions routine till I'm done (while episodes of Game Center CX, Bakusho Mondai (The Laughter Problem), and any non-drama shows recommended by khatz play in the background).
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-15
nonpoint Wrote:How many sentences is ko2001 made up of? 2001 sentences? 6003 sentences?Its ~3000 sentences actually, so closer to 100 days. This thread isn't about the pace I've sustained so much as the methods I used to sustain it (a different way of SRS'ing) and how I think that normal people can make use of them.
Assuming 6000 sentences and doing 30 new cards per day would mean: 6000 / 30 = 200 days. With reviews of something like 50-100 cards per day (I have given a conservative estimate since I don't know how to calculate that using the SR algo).
200 days of doing boring ko2001 sentences, yikes!
Its too bad not everyone has as much free time as blackmacros and I (college kids + summer = lots of free time). Most people have to balance, well, adult responsibilities with learning a language. I just hope it wont be too many people who burn out trying to do what blackmacros does... I wouldn't want to cause people to quit learning a language.
blackmacros: congrats on the birth of your niece/goddaughter
I have one of those creatures too (niece).
And thank you
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-15
vgambit Wrote:This is on some wax on, wax off Mr. Miyagi shit. I like it. I'll try it tomorrow at work.I didn't realise you'd updated your post. So it worked quite well for you? Everyone else who's tried it so far have been people adding large amounts of cards (100 kanji/day, 100+JLPT words per day etc etc), so I'm interested in how it works out for a more moderate number of new cards.
Update: Tried it out at work. I had plenty of interruptions and times when I had to actually work (I usually get plenty of downtime, but this was just one of those days), but I managed to review 60 kanji and add 30 new ones. It's insane. However, since I still have 306 reviews due + the 30 new cards, I think I'm gonna start tomorrow by reviewing the kanji I learned today. After that, I'll learn 15 new kanji (using kanji lite so I can get this phase over with, to return to another day, because I was supposed to be done learning RTK from January), then do the 30 reviews/15 additions routine till I'm done (while episodes of Game Center CX, Bakusho Mondai (The Laughter Problem), and any non-drama shows recommended by khatz play in the background).
Re-examining your SRS workflow - vgambit - 2009-07-15
The only reason I only added a small amount is that was pretty much all I could do in the amount of time I had.
Re-examining your SRS workflow - blackmacros - 2009-07-15
vgambit Wrote:The only reason I only added a small amount is that was pretty much all I could do in the amount of time I had.I didn't mean to deprecate how much you added. I was just wondering whether the process 'scales' as it were, for lower numbers of cards. Sorry if it came off a bit condescending.