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Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - somstuff - 2012-07-30
What are some things that a Japanese person would note when an English-speaker speaks Japanese?
If someone has a German accent when speaking English, one quality we would notice (though they probably wouldn't) would be that often times they pronounce "w" as "v." What are some equivalents of this when an English-speaker speaks Japanese?
I was reading something earlier today and it said English-speakers sometimes pronounce a single word with varying sound intensity/loudness, when they are trying to do pitch accent. So I guess that's one example of this.
On a side note, how important is pitch accent? Will lack of proper pitch accent give you away as a foreigner (assuming they don't already know, lol)? Is it as bad as improper accent in English words (ex: saying coFFEE instead of COffee).
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-30
Whenever I've heard Japanese people try to imitate Americans speaking Japanese, the number one thing they exaggerate is the use of English-style stress rather than Japanese pitch-accent (you mentioned this above).
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - kitakitsune - 2012-07-30
Americans have these common problems
1. Difficulty distinguishing between long and short vowels. This is by far the biggest problem.
2. Not getting the R's right.
3. Using the English pronounciation of a word instead of the katakana Japanese.
4. Too much pitch (or stress?).
Pitch accent is somewhat important and Japanese people will instantly know you are not native if you don't have one of the many accents commonly spoken in Japan. Same as in any English speaking country.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - somstuff - 2012-07-30
Oh yeah, I should have asked this in the first post, but have any ideas on how to fix these? The obvious answer is to just mimic speakers, have audio input, etc., but how about for specific things?
Like for number 2 you posted there kikakitsune- how should I fix that? I had a feeling something was up with those R's - I've been doing Spanish R's for everything, but in something like ラーメン it's a bit different.
When is "j" pronounced "zh"?
Does anyone else feel the need to focus on these things or are you just trying your best to mimic native speakers? Sometimes that's hard with non-English sounds that your mouth isn't used to, and that you think you're doing correctly but aren't.
If there's a good overview of Japanese phonology out there that anyone knows of, I'd love to see it. Wikipedia's is quite good but kinda confusing.
For pitch accent for individual words, I'm using Anki by putting the {{Audio}} field on the back of the card 3 times. I listen the first 1-2 times, and repeat at exactly the same time the remaining 1-2 times. So far, it seems to be working. However, I'm using GoogleTTS audio for a lot of stuff and sometimes it seems kind of unnatural (which is why I made this topic: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9682. Anyway, does this sound like a good idea? Are you guys doing anything specifically for pitch accent?
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Tzadeck - 2012-07-30
There are a lot of small ones that you wouldn't expect. For example, when Americans/British pronounce a 't' sound they release more air because they don't put their tongue as close to the back of their teeth as the Japanese do. You can hear that release of air (much like with a 'p' sound)
A big one that hasn't been mentioned is that English just has more vowel sounds, and certain vowel sounds don't usually repeat themselves or occur in a certain order in English, but they do in Japanese. So a lot of English speakers will use vowel sounds that are not found in Japanese against their will, since they unconciously apply the way vowel sounds work together in English to Japanese.
(Another obvious one is that we don't have the ふ sound in English, except when we are blowing out birthday candles, so some people have trouble pronouncing it)
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - turvy - 2012-07-30
For pronunciation, just study the IPA for Japanese by heart, this is good enough for awesomeness, but you could get even better if you dig deeper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Japanese
I find it easier and easier to tackle on the phonology of new languages I am studying or looking at since I "nailed" IPA down.
As for pitch accent, I haven't gotten so far as to figure out an organized approach to learn this. I think (1) exposure to the language in colossal quantities and (2) actually understanding what Japanese pitch accent is (there a few books on amazon) will do it.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - nadiatims - 2012-07-31
As others have said, a big thing is the english tendency to stress certain syllables by saying them with more intensity (volume, power) and getting the rhythm wrong.
Getting this right will basically came down to a) recognizing it intimately by listening to and understanding (so that you can actually recognize which words are being said) a lot japanese and b) speaking a lot of japanese and having trained your ears to the point you can hear when it sounds really off.
As for specifics like fu, hi, n, shi, chi and so on, I think these start to fall in place as you articulate your entire mouth more 'japanesely' in general while also trying to copy japanese intonation/rhythm.
し and ち for example while being romanized differently from the s and t kana respectively, don't actually require you to articulate your tongue any differently in order for the consonant to sound different. To japanese, the し consonant isn't considered any different from さすせそ. The tongue position doesn't change. し、ち、ひ just become slightly palatial because the mouth is opened more narrowly to make the i vowel. I think technically these sounds are considered 'allophones' (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Likewise ふ while romanized differently than the rest of h series, the consonant articulation (lips, tongue configuration) is the same. If you're pronounce the 'u' vowel correctly it will automatically start sounding a little 'f'-ish. You don't need to aspirate more forcefully or anything.
'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.
wrt to pitch. First thing is start by realizing how english stress works. REcognise that ENGlish has STREss PAterns, and just stop doing that. Say COffee. Then say coFFEE. Then try saying it without any stress. Try to remove that stress completely when speaking japanese. At the same time, be aware that pitch (as in up/down musical pitch) changes exist in japanese words. Listen out for it and the better you recognize the easier it becomes to imitate.
Finally, try to speak at the speed and constant rhythm as japanese. I think it's easy to get into the habit of speaking to slowly because at first you can't speak any faster.
Overall it's the intonation/rhythm/pitch (the envelope) that'll make you sound the most foreign more so than the pronunciation of specific consonants/vowels/words (though the more you get right the better obviously). Think of it like applying a 'japanese' filter to a sound wave. Think of it like imitating a different english accent. I think most native english speakers can do this to some extent, and when you do, you don't generally think about the pronunciation of each consonant or vowel. It's more of a overall mode switch. But I think people tend to hold back at first from really imitating foreign languages. At some subconscious level it feels a little childish or like we're being offensive. So you see some people who are actually quite high level but something is holding them back from really imitating. You see the same thing at karaoke, some people are unable to just let go.
this post became much longer than intended...
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - turvy - 2012-07-31
Today at class I was asking the kids "What's YOUR name?" stressing "your" to make it clear it was a direct question but they weren't sure if I was asking or making them repeat, so they just echoed the question back to me no matter how much I kept stressing "your" over and over again.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Javizy - 2012-07-31
nadiatims Wrote:'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.I'd say this is one of the biggest give-aways, right from the こんにちは. A lot of English-speakers don't do the nasal ん, and can't distinguish between 全員 and 善人. They have a tendency to "syllable-ise" words too, which is especially bad when ん is involved, e.g. in "syllable-ised" 先生 (sen-say) it wouldn't get anything like a whole mora and would just sound weird. It's similar to the long vowel problem where there's no concept of mora rhythm, which seems to be the biggest overall problem for a lot of people.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - socrat - 2012-07-31
kitakitsune Wrote:Americans have these common problemsAgree with all the above.
1. Difficulty distinguishing between long and short vowels. This is by far the biggest problem.
2. Not getting the R's right.
3. Using the English pronounciation of a word instead of the katakana Japanese.
4. Too much pitch (or stress?).
Pitch accent is somewhat important and Japanese people will instantly know you are not native if you don't have one of the many accents commonly spoken in Japan. Same as in any English speaking country.
For #2 for example, try not to pronounce 連絡 as RenRaku but more like LenLaku. Hear the R case is always a giveaway.
Number 1 is very difficult for me. Recently was reading an article to for one of my lang. partners and try to pronounce 同校 and they took it as どこ, so I said どううううこううう and still they thought it was どこ
So had to describe the kanji. Tried to get feedback on how to correct it but no luck.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-31
nadiatims Wrote:'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.You didn't need to be conscious of it. I did it wrong for years until I learned about it from a book.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Tzadeck - 2012-07-31
yudantaiteki Wrote:One obvious instance of an ん that you need to be conscious of is when it's followed by a vowel, as in 千円 （せんえん). There is no way you are pronouncing the ん in せん correctly without deliberate practice. It's an awkward mouth movement for native English speakers, the vast majority of which will pronounce the word as せねん or せんねん rather than せんえん.nadiatims Wrote:'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.You didn't need to be conscious of it. I did it wrong for years until I learned about it from a book.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-31
I've heard professors with decades of experience speaking the language still not pronounce ん correctly.
Another trouble spot for ん is before "s" -- if you pronounce the "n" as a full consonant it will come out sounding like "nch" instead, so that てんし becomes てんち or the like.
Quote:There is no way you are pronouncing the ん in せん correctly without deliberate practice.I think nadiatims is one of those gifted people who is able to pick up pronunciation naturally, I just wish he/she would stop implying or outright stating that everyone else will automatically pick it up perfectly without any studying. That kind of statement is terribly misleading to new learners and can cripple their pronunciation for their entire career in Japanese.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - s0apgun - 2012-07-31
Tzadeck Wrote:千円 （せんえん) in the Core audio has always bothered the hell out of me.yudantaiteki Wrote:One obvious instance of an ん that you need to be conscious of is when it's followed by a vowel, as in 千円 （せんえん). There is no way you are pronouncing the ん in せん correctly without deliberate practice. It's an awkward mouth movement for native English speakers, the vast majority of which will pronounce the word as せねん or せんねん rather than せんえん.nadiatims Wrote:'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.You didn't need to be conscious of it. I did it wrong for years until I learned about it from a book.
To me it sounds like there is zero pronunciation of the first ん and he's saying SEHN.
(vocab audio)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8065235/Anki/Core.media/0d1ec8aff87339d0497171322b4c092c.mp3
(sentence audio)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8065235/Anki/Core.media/cb67601d6c258ea90b2d14c7cee65a1d.mp3
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-31
The sentence sounds fine to me (although many Japanese people pronounce 千円 with a "y" sound), but the vocab audio is just せん. I don't think there's any way to hear that as 千円 and you can compare it with the sentence audio and see it's not long enough.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - s0apgun - 2012-07-31
Sorry I was referring just to the sentence audio. The mix of sen + en sounding just like sehn. Sounds like the tone on the first n is so low its not even there.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Nuriko - 2012-07-31
Saying な as if it has a long "o" sound, like in "nod," making なに sound like "nonny."
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Tzadeck - 2012-07-31
s0apgun Wrote:千円 （せんえん) in the Core audio has always bothered the hell out of me.Can't listen right now since I'm at work (although I've done Core so I can remember a bit maybe), but yeah, basically せんえん sounds a lot like せええん. My guess is that someone who has a good ear for accents would pronounce it せええん, which is not correct but is certainly closer than せんねん. Again, I think it would be super rare to get it absolutely correct without some deliberate practie, even if you were gifted.
To me it sounds like there is zero pronunciation of the first ん and he's saying SEHN.
(The way you do it is basically you narrow your mouth and start to put your tongue up as if you were going to pronounce ん, but you don't actually finish the motion.)
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-31
s0apgun Wrote:Sorry I was referring just to the sentence audio. The mix of sen + en sounding just like sehn. Sounds like the tone on the first n is so low its not even there.That's a good practice sentence then, because the "n" is definitely there. It's easier to hear when they put a "y" sound in but you can't always count on that. It's a nasalized vowel.
Quote:(The way you do it is basically you narrow your mouth and start to put your tongue up as if you were going to pronounce ん, but you don't actually finish the motion.)You also need to do a nasal sound as well; there is a difference between せーえん and せんえん.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Katsuo - 2012-07-31
To make the first ん sound in せんえん, say せ, then while continuing to hold the "e" vowel sound, open your nasal passage so that air is passing through both your nose and mouth at the same time.
This is quite a subtle sound as the tongue doesn't make contact with any other part of the mouth, but it should become easier to hear once you can do it yourself. I found making that sound difficult at first, but after forcing it for a few days it suddenly became natural and automatic.
(The second ん in せんえん is made in a different way, you pull your tongue back and use the rear of it to block off the mouth so that air passes through the nose only.)
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Tzadeck - 2012-07-31
Ooo, yeah, thanks for catching my mistake. I was drilled with pronounciation hard-core when I did JSL in university, but now I don't think about pronunciation so much so I'm not so good at explaining things anymore and I'm also forgetful.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - turvy - 2012-08-01
Anything with a CD that you can shadow is good but I was referring to this book in particular: http://amzn.to/OBRinL
These ones on practicing katakana words are cool too, I have both.
http://amzn.to/NTyOfO
http://amzn.to/M2X2pv
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - temporary - 2012-08-01
An other typical feature of English accent (beside heavy stress) is the use of diphtongs instead of long monophtong vowels, pronouncing のう /n'oʊ/ (like 'no', the English word), instead of /noo/.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - nadiatims - 2012-08-01
Tzadeck Wrote:I think it was wrong of me to write 'n' here. I really meant 'ん'. And ん is not n. It's not even a consonant for a start. It's a nasal mora. My contention was that if you can pronounce the mora ん correctly and the overall articulation of your mouth correctly while speaking with more or less accurate intonation/rhythm, then the allophonic variations of ん (which I don't think japanese people are at all conscious of) will tend to sort themselves out. To say ん just close your mouth while making a short nasal vowel sound. Pronounced in isolation it'll sound closest to a slightly 'n'ish 'm' (mmmmmm....if you drag it out). The thing is though, when speaking at speed, it is awkward to close your mouth and lips completely ahead of consonants (except labial b, p, m) so unless you're really forcing yourself, it'll end up sounding different, like an 'ng' or 'n' because you don't close your mouth/lips. Try saying 銀行 gimkou. It's awkward right? or 先生 like semsei or 千円 like sem en. But regardless of what consonant ん precedes the tongue shouldn't move from it's neutral position and certainly shouldn't curl up like an english 'n', except perhaps ahead of ら行 for obvious reasons. It's basically just jaw flapping. This is probably also why you can sometimes hear a tinge of a 'y' in 千円 because the mouth is closed quite narrowly to make the ん mora ahead of starting え. Make sense?yudantaiteki Wrote:One obvious instance of an ん that you need to be conscious of is when it's followed by a vowel, as in 千円 （せんえん). There is no way you are pronouncing the ん in せん correctly without deliberate practice. It's an awkward mouth movement for native English speakers, the vast majority of which will pronounce the word as せねん or せんねん rather than せんえん.nadiatims Wrote:'n' is pronounced in a handful of different ways, but you don't really need to be conscious of it. If your overall mouth articulation (the 'wrapping') is correct it will fall into place.You didn't need to be conscious of it. I did it wrong for years until I learned about it from a book.
edit: So if you start by learning ん is n as I think most people do, perhaps doing exercises going from kana to romaji and vica-versa and start and continue speaking right from the start long before you are ever really used to how japanese really sounds and the general feeling of how the mouth is moving then you could pick up some anomalies in your pronunciation. Nothing is unfixable though if you are really want to though.
Common Traits of an "English/American Accent" Japanese Perspective - Thora - 2012-08-01
Luckily, Japanese pronunciation isn't a huge problem for English speakers. There aren't many sounds in Japanese and only a few (identified in this thread) present any difficulty. I think it's worthwhile to spend some time learning to produce those sounds accurately early on. It improves perception and helps avoid engrained mispronunciation (which is said to be the hardest aspect of language to change.)
One effective approach is apparently to practice pronunciation/intonation/pitch with a native speaker in a small group of other learners. It seems counter intuitive, I know. For some reason we're able to compare the incorrect sound of other learners to the native speaker's target sound and figure out what changes are required to get the correct sound. We're also better able to assess the sounds of others than our own. Immediate feedback is key too. They had better results with this than with mouth diagrams and descriptions, or phonology jargon, etc.
I thought those results were quite interesting, but obviously not everyone has access to such a group. People should use whatever is available and works for them. As I recall, there have been some detailed explanations of those problematic sounds in various threads as well as links to some resources.
Nadiatims, what makes you certain people will be able to notice all of their own errors simply by listening more? It's not uncommon to record learners to let them hear themselves and see a visualization of their speech. It turns out learners frequently believe they are making a different sound than they actually are. This kind of feedback has proven to be very effective at correcting vowel length, pitch and intonation.