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+--- Thread: Primitive overlap (/thread-3296.html)
Primitive overlap - elanlan - 2009-06-15
Small concern here, I didn't want to make a separate thread but I didn't find any relevant ones.
Basically, I noticed many primitives overlapping, and this isn't a large hurdle really, I just wanted some clarification.
In particular, the primitive for "jewel," "ball," "king," and "porter."
I suppose porter doesn't fit this group as the first stroke is slightly slanted and middle slightly elongated, but the former 3 tend to mesh mentally. Is this a concern to be addressed or simply go with it?
Many thanks!
Primitive overlap - Rooboy - 2009-06-15
Yeah Heisig manages to confuse this nicely.
All I simply did was drop the "ball" altogether
After that was no problem. Much easier to have vivid images/stories for a king than a ball for me.
So basically just remember 王 as "king", 玉 as "jewel". Worked for me especially as a king would have a jewel attached to him somehwere (5th stroke in jewel).
(Alternatively I guess you could just drop "jewel" and use "ball")
As for "porter" make sure you are checking stroke order/direction thouroughly as you go. The first stroke in "porter" is right to left which should give it a completely different feel
Primitive overlap - Pangolin - 2009-06-15
I've not had any problems with jewel, ball and king myself. Porter I think you can eliminate from confusion entirely if you think of it as being based on 士 (gentleman), which it is. As you say, the slanted 1st stroke (and its different direction) and wider middle stroke make it quite different from "king" and "jewel". Smallish details are quite significant in differentiating many similar primitives, so you will have to make a point of taking note of them.
As for 王 and 玉, like Rooboy, I always use 王 as king and 玉 as jewel in stories (I don't think I use "ball" as a primitive name at all, either). You might consider the drop as the jewel's "sparkle" or "bling".
Primitive overlap - Katsuo - 2009-06-15
Three to watch out for:
1. 王 and 玉: Japanese sources I checked are also inconsistent here. But for memorization purposes it might be better to stick to "king" and "jewel" respectively (as the previous posters mentioned).
2. 天 and 夭: RTK1 calls them both "heavens", but RTK3 calls the latter "sapling". The KanjiGen (a well-known Japanese kanji dictionary) distinguishes between them, so it would be better to use "sapling" for 夭 in RTK1 also (see nos. 429, 634, 938).
3. "Drag" is a primitive word in RTK1 (e.g. first two strokes of 盾) but gets used again in RTK3 as the keyword for 曳, and subsequently as a primitive name in 洩. I suggest renaming 曳 as "tow".
Incidentally, don't confuse the original "drag" (in 盾 etc.) with "cliff". The difference is that first stroke of "drag" slopes and is drawn right-to-left. But then watch out for number 514 栃, which like 励砺蛎 is classified as "cliff" but unlike them is usually drawn with "drag".