+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: -te past vs normal past (/thread-3271.html)
-te past vs normal past - magamo - 2009-06-12
Thora Wrote:Actually my google results are quite different from Jarvik's when it comes to 言っていた:magamo Wrote:So I think the results are totally skewed. That's one of the reasons why I put 今 before 何.But 今 is less common before ~言っている than ~言った so you end up with nothing. Yeah, I'm not convinced Google is so useful. And I think we've exhausted this 何て言った. (If thistime's husband had any idea...) =]
393 for "何って言っていた"
19,400 for "何て言っていた"
I'm guessing he just forgot to put them in quotation marks. 6,850,000 hits are weird. I think native speakers may say なんっていっていた and write 何って言っていた when 何 is emphasized, but as far as I know, なんていっていた is written as 何て言っていた.
-te past vs normal past - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-12
I have quotes as you can see from the copy&paste. Your numbers are way too small. Perhaps your Google is set to only find matches on English pages..
-te past vs normal past - magamo - 2009-06-12
Jarvik7 Wrote:I have quotes as you can see from the copy&paste. Your numbers are way too small. Perhaps your Google is set to only find matches on English pages..No. I searched on google.co.jp too, only to get the same results... thistime's results are exactly the same as mine; 393 vs. 19,400. I thought you hadn't put it in quotation marks because 6,850,000 vs. 39,400 looks weird when your other search results are 10,000~40,000 hits.
-te past vs normal past - blackmacros - 2009-06-12
I'm getting the same amount of hits as magamo with those search terms.
-te past vs normal past - Tobberoth - 2009-06-12
Thora Wrote:That's the thing though. A native has already been in this topic discussing it so it's of course very possible that I'm wrong, but I'm sorta thinking that just because in English there are two different grammatical concepts used, we see a difference there. Japanese people use their "broad gerund" or whatever instead, so they don't actively think about a difference, because they aren't wording any difference.Tobberoth Wrote:It's of course a matter of definition, but I really don't see the point in making a distinction, outside of translation between Japanese and English.The distinctions exist whether you translate them or not. The uses of ～ている may all have something to do with 'state', but Japanese understand the differences and we need to as well. The question is how to best explain those differences. English translations are just a shortcut to help students grasp the different uses and understand how Japanese handles some concepts differently. One could explain the different uses entirely in Japanese (but that's not typically an option for beginners).
Without understanding those differences, it will be difficult to accurately interpret and use the form. And isn't that the ultimate goal?
I don't think Japanese 小学生 are taught the different "meanings" of -ている, because I think the whole idea that ている changes meaning comes from an English perspective where the concepts used there (like gerund) are just a lot more specific.
From a pure Japanese standpoint, I'm sure the meaning of ている could be defined so that it doesn't change at all in those situations. We only need to learn those changes because we actively said that ている = gerund, and that's why exceptions pop up. Someone who learned Japanese through context is probably not going to realize or care that, from an English perspective, ている means something completely different in 来ています, they are going to understand it regardless.
I would see if from the verbs. 来る is an instantaneous verb. It happens in an instant. You can't be "coming" somewhere, you can just be traveling somewhere and eventually come. The act of 来る happens and ends when the door is opened. Since it's instantaneous, the state form HAS to refer to having come somewhere. Same with death. You die in an instant, it can't take time, you're alive until you're dead (Here again, the confusion comes from English. In English, you can say "I'm dying" but from a logical standpoint, that makes no sense. You going to die, you're not actually dying). So -ている just means a verb happened and then continued. In all situations. When it was an instantaneous action, it just means the state entered with that instantaneous action continued. You can stop 来るing by going home, but you can't stop 死ぬing. It really doesn't matter for the meaning of ている though.
-te past vs normal past - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-12
blackmacros Wrote:I'm getting the same amount of hits as magamo with those search terms.I have more internets than you.
-te past vs normal past - cloudstrife543 - 2009-06-12
chamcham Wrote:Can anyone tell me the different between:I think a good way to think about it if you are having trouble with the -ている thing is like this.
sushi wo tabemashita
sushi wo tabeteimashita
OR
nihongo wo benkyoushimashita
nihongo wo benkyoushiteimashita
Thanks.
すしを食べていました。
-I eat sushi and was in that state.
Personally, I found it much easier to translate it that way, especially when it is being used in more complex way rather than just the above sentence examples.
-te past vs normal past - chamcham - 2009-06-12
aren't なんて and 何って completely different words?
何って = quotative marker
なんて = "something" (as in "I can't believe he would do SOMETHING like murder)
-te past vs normal past - magamo - 2009-06-12
chamcham Wrote:aren't なんて and 何って completely different words?なんて has tons of meanings, and technically なんて in your example is a different word. なんて like that is 副助詞, and the one in なんて言った？ is 副詞 in grammar speak. Your なんて is always written in kana.
何って = quotative marker
なんて = "something" (as in "I can't believe he would do SOMETHING like murder)
彼が殺人を犯すなんて信じられない！I can't believe he would do SOMETHING like murder! 副助詞
なんて言った？ What did you say? 副詞 (can be 何て)
-te past vs normal past - chamcham - 2009-06-13
magamo Wrote:it's also possible that the phrase 何て言った has 2 different meanings:chamcham Wrote:aren't なんて and 何って completely different words?なんて has tons of meanings, and technically なんて in your example is a different word. なんて like that is 副助詞, and the one in なんて言った？ is 副詞 in grammar speak. Your なんて is always written in kana.
何って = quotative marker
なんて = "something" (as in "I can't believe he would do SOMETHING like murder)
彼が殺人を犯すなんて信じられない！I can't believe he would do SOMETHING like murder! 副助詞
なんて言った？ What did you say? 副詞 (can be 何て)
1. 何て言った? (using "何て" to mean "something") = "Did you say something?"
2. 何て言った? (using "何て" as a quotative marker) = "What was it that you just said"?
I also spoke with my japanese teacher today. Apparently 何て言った is correct, whereas 何って言った is ungrammatical.
-te past vs normal past - thecite - 2009-06-16
Woah, that's a lot of talking about 何って言っていた. I'd usually say 何って言っていた, or simply 何って言ってた, the い is usually left out in casual speech. They say 何って with tte, because って is the casual quoting particle, "blah blah...って言った." Therefore, 何て言っていた is slightly more uncommon.