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+--- Thread: The meaning of が particle. (/thread-3254.html)
The meaning of が particle. - bassxx2099 - 2009-06-09
I have been using TaeKim's grammar site to mine sentences but when I get to a sentence with the が particle I seem to never understand the sentence or the function of が. For example:
1. ボブ：誰が学生？- Who is the one that is student?
The first sentence makes sense to me since who is unspecified therefore it requires が.
アリス: ジムが学生。- Jim is the one who is student.
The response sentence is driving me crazy, is it trying to say that among all the students Jim is a student but not "the" particular student?
2.(a) 誰が学生？ - Who is the one that is student?
(b) 学生は誰？- (The) student is who?
Sentence 2a is the same as above but in sentence 2b if I use the exact same logic as in sentence this (ジムが学生) the meaning shifts to "the" student.
My theories are that が can be used for unspecified topics. But can someone help clarify this for me.
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My next group of sentences are all related but again what is the function of が.
1. ボブは魚が好きだ。- Bob likes fish.
2. ボブは魚が好きじゃない。- Bob does not like fish.
3. ボブは魚が好きだった。- Bob liked fish.
4. ボブは魚が好きじゃなかった。- Bob did not like fish.
I know everything except for the が.
Here are the links:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/particles.html
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/adjectives.html
The meaning of が particle. - kyotokanji - 2009-06-09
Would I be right in syaing that before 好き, it is the normal to use が? When I learnt these phrases I always put the two togther as AはBが好きだ。 This form being always used when there is no specific stress on a part of the phrses. I think.
The meaning of が particle. - Floatingweed5 - 2009-06-09
The best (i.e most readable) article I ever read on the subject was in the book "Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You" by Jay Rubin. It's worth picking up the book, but in the meantime you can read most of the article online at google books. (You should head to the "wa and ga" chapter starting on page 31).
http://books.google.com/books?id=iOq6wCn9bxEC&dq=Making+Sense+of+Japanese:+What+the+Textbooks+Don't+Tell+You&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=SY2S3sqUk9&sig=fiZ3MzQ5AeKaYv_KYU2n82zWlXY&hl=en&ei=bLQuSqCyJMqZjAfqwPyVCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
The meaning of が particle. - kazelee - 2009-06-09
1) Ga is answering a silent question.
誰が学生ですか
ボブが学生。Of all the people in the room he is a student. It ｍay or may not be a room full of student.
ー あれがBです。
ー Bは学生ですか。B is no longer new
ー いいえAが学生。Bは先生です。No A is the one who is a student、B is a teacher.
2) は does not equal "the" が doesn't not equal "a." There are situation where they seem to fit those roles, though. This sentence assumes that the students are already the current topic.
学生は誰？
Speaking of the student(s), Speaking of student(s), who (is one),
ー学生がここにいる。Student here? Topic introduced
ーあっ、どこ？ Where?
ーあち。 Over there?
ーおお、学生は誰？Oh、student...Who? Topic known.
Examples sentence)
Ga can also connect intransitive verbs.
車が止まった。The car stopped.
車を止めった。（I） stopped the car.
猫がでる。The cat came out
ねこをだす。(I) Take out a cat (from where god only knows)
The meaning of が particle. - mentat_kgs - 2009-06-09
Ok,
The problem here is that you are trying to understand a set of rules that don't exist.
After you hear/read 1000 sentences with は and が, you'll understand it as you was born Japanese.
Don't worry about that
Accept the simple explanations and go to the next item.
The meaning of が particle. - kazelee - 2009-06-09
Quote:1. ボブは魚が好きだ。- Bob likes fish.Never really thought about this... Just accepted it for what it was.
2. ボブは魚が好きじゃない。- Bob does not like fish.
3. ボブは魚が好きだった。- Bob liked fish.
4. ボブは魚が好きじゃなかった。- Bob did not like fish.
Perhaps it has to do with desiring in general and the exclusive quality of ga.
Much like
Bが学生だ is something like... Of all the people here (or in the world) B is student.
魚が好きです。Of all the things in the world, specifically, fish is desirable.
The meaning of が particle. - Floatingweed5 - 2009-06-09
mentat_kgs Wrote:The problem here is that you are trying to understand a set of rules that don't exist."Grammar study" vs "No grammar study" is well discussed elsewhere on the forum, so I don't want to fly too far off topic, or turn this into another "Huge Argument ™", but I think an elementary understanding of は and が and other key concepts can be quite useful when you go leaping into those 1000 or 10000 sentences to bulk up your language skills.
は and が is something people have lots of trouble with at all stages of the language, so I think it is a topic worth investigating - if the student is so inclined - although I've always thought this particular section of Tae Kim's book was a little lacking on the matter.
The meaning of が particle. - Codexus - 2009-06-09
Lol, the original poster is going to be so confused with those explanations. And apparently Tae Kim too is trying way too hard to show the subtle difference in the translated sentence.
When I first learned about が, I was told it marked the subject of the sentence. And that was enough to get me started until I was ready to learn about the subtle differences between が and は. You don't really need to know more for the time being, first get a feeling of how it's used and then you'll be able to learn more about it.
The meaning of が particle. - Floatingweed5 - 2009-06-09
Codexus Wrote:Lol, the original poster is going to be so confused with those explanations.You're right. And you've given the best advice. Even I'm confused, and I'm reasonably comfortable with the topic! (or is that the subject
A lot of the confusion seems to stem from the relative lack of context in these sentences or short dialogues. It's a lot less confusing "out in the wild" where there is lots of context to draw upon.
The meaning of が particle. - bassxx2099 - 2009-06-09
Codexus Wrote:Lol, the original poster is going to be so confused with those explanations. And apparently Tae Kim too is trying way too hard to show the subtle difference in the translated sentence.Okay fine I'll just take it as it is, and yes all those explanations were kind of confusing. However is it okay just to think of them as topic particles and then revisit the が and は idea. I guess you guys gave more insight on how to not overanylze something.
When I first learned about が, I was told it marked the subject of the sentence. And that was enough to get me started until I was ready to learn about the subtle differences between が and は. You don't really need to know more for the time being, first get a feeling of how it's used and then you'll be able to learn more about it.
The meaning of が particle. - bodhisamaya - 2009-06-09
From All About Particles by Naoko Chino:
は is used to set off a topic. It often but not always comes after the subject.
が 1. indicates the subject of the sentence or, with certain verbs and adjectives, the object.
2. Used between clauses and at the end of sentences, usually with the meaning 'but"
The meaning of が particle. - kazelee - 2009-06-09
Here's a little more info in vid format...
http://www.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/08particlewa/08particlewa.html
More vids
http://www.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/vjghomepage/vjghome.htm
The meaning of が particle. - kyotokanji - 2009-06-09
Didn't the OP ask for clarification regarding the examples with が好きだ。I think that this is very simple, as I explained in my earlier post. When you learn the word 好き you put the particle が before it. It has nothing to do with comparing は and が。
Same as when you learn できる、出来る、you just learn to put が before it and make が出来る and therefore が食べられる が読める etc. This should be studied as a simple function of が and not in the realms of comparing with other particles.
The meaning of が particle. - mentat_kgs - 2009-06-09
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I was trying to give a similar opinion to Codexu's.
I just wanted to tranquilize the poster, by saying that It is normal not to know the difference between は and が in the beginning and that he'll know them well after a justified amount of exposure.
The meaning of が particle. - bassxx2099 - 2009-06-09
kyotokanji Wrote:Didn't the OP ask for clarification regarding the examples with が好きだ。I think that this is very simple, as I explained in my earlier post. When you learn the word 好き you put the particle が before it. It has nothing to do with comparing は and が。So are you saying that the が in が好きだ。has nothing to do with が in 誰が学生？? If so then let it be done and I accept that fact.
Same as when you learn できる、出来る、you just learn to put が before it and make が出来る and therefore が食べられる が読める etc. This should be studied as a simple function of が and not in the realms of comparing with other particles.
Also the video posted help clarify the usage of wa after a new topic has been introduced. But I still don't quite understand the usage of が other than in questions. However maybe I should change my question to what does が mean to you? Or if you were to give が a meaning what one meaning would you give it?
The meaning of が particle. - bodhisamaya - 2009-06-09
が gives information the other might not know. 好き and 出来る assumes something not obvious
The meaning of が particle. - Brittswimmer1y6 - 2009-06-09
Isn't it usually objects that refer back to the topic that get described use が?
ボブは髪が短い
As for Bob (topic), [his] hair (subject) short [is]
The same for the OPs 好き example right?
ボブは何々が好き
As for Bob (topic), [his] so and so (subject) desirable [is]
?
Also is it safe to assume that if a question sentence has が in it, one should respond with が?
何人家族がいる？
四人がいる
The meaning of が particle. - magamo - 2009-06-09
は vs. が is quite easy if you know this simple rule: Assume you want to say Xは/がY. If your mind is focusing on X, then you use が. If Y is more important, then you use は. That's it.
Here's a simple example. Imagine you want to say "I am a/the teacher":
Me: Who is a teacher?
You: 私が先生です. (You use "が" because "I" is more important than "先生です," and your mind is focusing on "私.")
Me: What do you do for a living?
You: 私は先生です. (You use "は" because "teacher" is more important than "私," and your mind is focusing on "先生.")
If you're having a hard time understanding which part in a sentence is more important, try answering the questions by saying only X or Y:
Me: Who is a teacher?
You: I.
(Makes sense. Right?)
Me: Who is a teacher?
You: Teacher.
(I'll punch you in the face.)
Me: What do you do?
You: Teacher.
(Makes sense.)
Me: What do you do?
You: I.
(wtf)
A few more examples may help:
Me: Who did this?
You: I did this. 私がこれをしました。(You use "が" because you're focusing on "私." In fact, "私" or "I" is ok as a short reply while saying "This" doesn't make sense.)
Me: What did you do?
You: I did this. 私はこれをしました。(You use "は" because you're focusing on "this." "This" is a perfect short answer in this case while "I" doesn't make any sense.)
Since English and Japanese are completely different, this "answering by X or Y" method is too simplistic. So, just listen to your heart once you get the idea of this rule. For example,
Me: Who would love a person like me... *sigh*
You: I love you.
So, is 私はあなたを愛しています？ Or 私があなたを愛しています? Actually either sentence makes sense in this case. But if the sentence in your mind is like "I LOVE YOU. Believe me. I DO." then you say 私は because you're focusing more on "愛している" than "私." If you want to say "I love you! The whole world may hate you, but I love you!" then you say "私が."
This rule should work for almost all simple sentences; lots of native Japanese speakers are using this method to revise/polish their writing. But of course there are exceptions. I'll give a tricky example:
Me: What do you think of this?
You: I think this is good.
If you follow your heart, you'd say 私はこれは良いと思います; When you're saying 私, your mind is already focusing on "This is good" because that's the essential part of the sentence, so you say 私は. Also, "Good" is more important than "This" so you say これは. Actually, a native Japanese speaker would also say so in an informal conversation. This sounds natural and idiomatic in spoken Japanese. But asshol..., um, linguists came up with a counter-intuitive rule that you shouldn't say は as a particle more than once in one sentence. This is probably because multiple はs could be ambiguous in more complicated sentences. That's why educated Japanese people would write 私の意見ですがこれは良いと思います (It's like replacing "I think" with "In my opinion"). We all learn this kind of fancy paraphrasing at school, but no one cares about multiple はs in an informal conversation. You're anal if you say "Hey, you just said は twice!"
So this simple は vs. が rule may not always work in highly advanced sentences, and you could make errors like a Japanese kid. But I think it's much better than making gaijin-ish errors... Seriously, who said teachers should teach the grammar rules like subject vs. topic and は = as for? They may be important in linguistics, but students are supposed to "speak" the language, not analyze it...
The meaning of が particle. - Floatingweed5 - 2009-06-09
@kyotokanji
The sentence "kyotokanjiは好きです" is possible in the right context. As is "kyotokanjiは出来ます" or even just "出来ます" or "好きです" with no particle. A student will meet sentences like this early in his/her studies, so it's misleading to simply teach that が precedes 好き or 出来ます without imparting at least a basic understanding of why this might be the case. Building up a gradual understanding of the role of particles is better than (or should at least accompany) learning grammar "rules" - although (as I think we're all agreed) it's not important to understand every nuance on day one.
@mentat_kgs
My apologies too. I see what you were trying to say. I got a bit defensive because I seem to have seen many useful threads recently descend into sprawling arguments over whose study method is best.
The meaning of が particle. - Brittswimmer1y6 - 2009-06-09
@ magamo You sir, just gained +1000 internets
.[off topic but has は in it...]
I hear however that a lot of Japanese people use は for negative sentences as well, is that true?
テレビを見るのが好き？
ううん、テレビはあまり見ない
v
ううん、テレビをあまり見ない
Assuming of course that you decide to keep the noun television in your sentence, which one sounds more natural?
The meaning of が particle. - Floatingweed5 - 2009-06-09
@Brittswimmer1y6
I can't say which one is more natural (would have to ask a native speaker - and she's currently sleeping) but my book-learned understanding is that は finds it's way into such sentences because it gives emphasis to the latter part of the sentence and a negative response is somehow culturally perceived as being worthy of emphasis.
Might be useless conjecture, however.
The meaning of が particle. - magamo - 2009-06-09
Brittswimmer1y6 Wrote:I hear however that a lot of Japanese people use は for negative sentences as well, is that true?Either is ok. But there is a slight difference in nuance between the two. If you say テレビを, then you're thinking テレビ and あまり見ない are of the same importance in the sentence, i.e., you're just stating the fact. If you say テレビは, then it means you're thinking テレビ is less important in your sentence as I already explained. So listeners may assume that you don't often watch TV because there is something more important to watch/do or you're emphasizing "don't often watch." The sense of "Oh, you think テレビ is less important than the following clause" pops up in listeners' mind just when they hear the は. Of course, the latter sentence could also mean "I don't like TV (because it's boring)" or something along those lines, but if you use を, the sense of "TV is less important" comes when you finish the sentence as a logical consequence.
テレビを見るのが好き？
ううん、テレビはあまり見ない
v
ううん、テレビをあまり見ない
Assuming of course that you decide to keep the noun television in your sentence, which one sounds more natural?
As for テレビを見るのが好き？ vs. テレビを見るのは好き？, the former is specifically asking if you like watching TV while the latter is asking if you like it. For example, if you say ...見るのが好き？, you may sound like you're assuming the person probably likes it, or you are asking it because you're surprised the person likes watching TV (just like "Oh, really? You like watching TV? I thought you'd think TV is vulgar.").
テレビが好き？ implies you're focusing on テレビ, hence the question is very specific about TV.
テレビは好き？ implies you're focusing on 好き, hence you're asking if they like it or not.
Native speakers often drop は/が in this kind of sentence in an informal conversation when they don't want to emphasize either of them. So テレビ好き？ or テレビ見るの好き？are neutral questions, thought they sound a little informal.
These examples may help:
You: テレビは好き？
Me: No.
You: 本が好き？
(Probably you're assuming that people who don't like TV are more or less bookworms. Your mind is focusing on 本, and you should have a reason why you brought up 本.)
You: テレビは好き？
Me: No.
You: 本は好き？
(You're just throwing in a random thing I might like. No emphasis is placed on 本.)
You: 犬は好き？
Me: No.
You: 猫が好き？
(You're assuming that I'm a cat person because I just said I didn't like dogs. By the way, I'm a cat person.)
Of course, assuming what a person is like without concrete evidence can be rude. So even if I said I don't like dogs, still you might want to say 猫は好き？ to avoid the sense of prejudice.
The meaning of が particle. - captal - 2009-06-09
Your advice seems so opposite to what we normally see- ie Topic vs. Subject.
That is, は should make something stand out -
私はしゅんです。 - I am Shun (and no one else is).
今日は金曜日です。- Today is Friday (and not some other day).
etc.
But the logic you posted above seems to say the opposite (which is probably why it makes so much sense)... actually that doesn't make sense because the important points in the sentences above are しゅん and 金曜日 respectively.
Wow, your way definitely makes more sense when I think about it.Thanks heaps- I've always had tons of trouble with this- I'm definitely going to use that line of thinking- what is more important, X or Y? Actually I'm going to send this to my Japanese teacher (who is a good friend of mine) and tell him to start teaching this.
The meaning of が particle. - blackmacros - 2009-06-09
Yeah my Japanese teacher always told me that は (eg 私は...) emphasised the bit in front of the は. When asked about が they would sort of mumble a brief explanation about "subject vs topic" (what does that even *mean* anyway?) and move on. But what magamo is saying makes much more sense.
The meaning of が particle. - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-09
captal: Japanese textbooks etc for foreigners always do a horrid job of explaining basic grammar (to the point that some short sighted/misled learners claim that grammar has no rules), so it doesn't surprise me if they got it backwards. More of the "meh, good enough" spirit. Topic vs subject is a bad way of thinking about it. Who can even explain the difference between a topic and a subject?
Another explanation is "new information vs old information".
(subjects left in for extra textbookyness)
A: dare ga sensei desu ka?
-Requesting new information (who?)
B: tanaka-sensei ga sensei desu.
-Giving new information (It's tanaka)
A: sou desu ka.. tanaka-sensei ha kibishii desu ka?
-tanaka's name is now old information, so the particle changes to ha to point at the new information (that he's nice)
B: tanaka-sensei ha totemo yasashii desu yo.
-same
It is really the same thing as magamo's explanation. New information is also the most important information. New vs old is a bit broader I think though (ex: ga is always used with question words to request new info).
(arrow pointing towards new information)
<-ga
ha->
as in
dare ga sensei?
sensei ha dare?
(there is subtle nuance difference here related to new/old)
note: this post is ugly because I currently cannot input Japanese due to an Anki bug.