The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-12-29

Could someone tell me if とも is being used here with the same meaning as か, or is it something different? Don't believe I've seen this usage before, but it really looks like か.

「ふかえりはね、まず君に会ってみたいって言うんだ」と小松は煙を吐きながら言った。「話に興味があるともないとも言わない。やってもいいとも、そんなことやりたくないとも言わない。とりあえず君と会って、面と向かって話をするのが、いちばん重要なことらしい。会ってから、どうするか返事をするそうだ。責任重大だと思わないか?」

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-12-29

It's always the particle と connecting with 言わない。And then the も adding the 'also' characteristic to it. Kinda like:
話に興味があると言わない。話に興味がないと言わない。
So to connect them, it's　〜あるとも、ないとも言わない。
Same with the second sentence. Kind of like "can't say it is, can't say it isn't" type of deal.

In this case, I guess あるか、ないか would work in the same way.

That's how I see it.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2010-12-29

FooSoft Wrote:Could someone tell me if とも is being used here with the same meaning as か, or is it something different? Don't believe I've seen this usage before, but it really looks like か.

「ふかえりはね、まず君に会ってみたいって言うんだ」と小松は煙を吐きながら言った。「話に興味があるともないとも言わない。やってもいいとも、そんなことやりたくないとも言わない。とりあえず君と会って、面と向かって話をするのが、いちばん重要なことらしい。会ってから、どうするか返事をするそうだ。責任重大だと思わないか?」

共 [とも] - neither (with negative verb)?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-12-29

FooSoft Wrote:Could someone tell me if とも is being used here with the same meaning as か, or is it something different? Don't believe I've seen this usage before, but it really looks like か.

「ふかえりはね、まず君に会ってみたいって言うんだ」と小松は煙を吐きながら言った。「話に興味があるともないとも言わない。やってもいいとも、そんなことやりたくないとも言わない。とりあえず君と会って、面と向かって話をするのが、いちばん重要なことらしい。会ってから、どうするか返事をするそうだ。責任重大だと思わないか?」

It works a bit like "also," "or," "whether," "either" etc. and you can use it with other verbs than 言わない. For example:

良いとも悪いともわからない
I don't know if it's good or bad.

本気とも皮肉とも取れる話し方だった
It wasn't clear if he was ironic or he really meant it.

Also, a sentence doesn't have to contain two ともs, e.g.,

彼が好きだって絶対言わないだろうし、そこがあいつらしいと言えばあいつらしいんだけど、まったく気がないとも思えない。(There is only one とも in this long sentence.)
She never says she likes him. And that's like her, I think. But it kind of seems like she has feeling for him.

Sometimes it is a bit similar to か. For instance, the first example sentence can be reworded as:

良いか悪いかわからない

The meaning is slightly different but is close enough for the same translation to work as rough approximations. But you can't replace とも with か in the second and third examples.

The point is that it's not a single word but a combination of と and も. As Asriel said, it's adding a sense of も to the usual ~と+verb pattern. It's quite difficult to explain the feel added by も through translation because English doesn't have a good counterpart. So if you look for a translation of this も, you'll get struck with a flood of seemingly unrelated English words. Also, because 〜と+verb and も have different meanings and usages than 〜か+verb, they're not interchangeable in general. As illustrated in the second and third examples, it can even lead to sentences which don't make sense.

An important nuance the もs in examples in this and your posts have is that another thing (or other things) is implied. So, in the AともBとも言わない structure, the speaker might be implying B when he says Aとも while implicitly referring back to A when he says B とも. This is very common, especially when it's an "either A or B and no other option" situation as in 彼は「はい」とも「いいえ」とも言わない. This mutual implication creates a strong sense of "It's not A when it is not B either."

So in your example, it's not simple "She doesn't say if she's interested in it," which the か version would mean. It's two facts:
1) She doesn't say A when it is kind of expected to say so (because she doesn't say B and it's usually an either-or thing).
2) She doesn't say B when it's sort of expected to say so (because she doesn't say A and it's an either-or thing).
And these two meanings are combined by "either" like "She doesn't say A, but she doesn't say B either."

So the speaker of your example might be implying that (you might find it surprising, but) it is not an either-or thing for her or that she has reasons to remain ambiguous as to which side she is on. If the speaker is implying something like these, this is another difference between とも and か because Aか言わない isn't implying Bか言わない so there would be no further implication like this either. The following sentences might help understand the difference:

先生は正解が1か言わない -> The point is whether the answer is 1, e.g., "I want to know if it's 1 or not. But she doesn't say if 1 is the correct answer. So I'm still wondering if 1 is correct."

先生は正解が1とも言わない -> The point is も adds some implied "also"-ish sense to 正解が1と言わない, e.g., "I kind of doubt 3 is correct. And she said 2 is definitely wrong. But she didn't say 1 is the correct answer. Hmm... Halp me!"

正解は1か言えない -> No implication. "I'm not allowed to say if 1 is correct or not."

正解は1とも言えない -> も might imply, "It doesn't seem like 2 is the correct answer. And 3 is obviously wrong, which leaves 1. But if you read the question carefully, 1 isn't quit right." If you interpret 言えない the same way as the か version, it might be like "I'm not allowed to tell you if 2 is correct even if it is. And I can't tell you if 1 is correct either."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FoxintheStars - 2010-12-29

綺譚, pronounced　きたん

This is from the title of a sci-fi manga story, "モルヒネ綺譚"; I get the "morphine" part, but can't find the second word anywhere...

ETA: Okay, I found 綺談 pronounced きだん and meaning "fascinating story" (note to self: check Tuttle Kanji Dictionary before posting), and the last kanji in the two seem similar in meaning, so I think it's something along those lines?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-12-29

try 奇譚
It's using the 綺 just like キレイ is sometimes 奇麗 and sometimes 綺麗

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-12-29

FoxintheStars Wrote:綺譚, pronounced　きたん

This is from the title of a sci-fi manga story, "モルヒネ綺譚"; I get the "morphine" part, but can't find the second word anywhere...

ETA: Okay, I found 綺談 pronounced きだん and meaning "fascinating story" (note to self: check Tuttle Kanji Dictionary before posting), and the last kanji in the two seem similar in meaning, so I think it's something along those lines?

Well, you might want to google it first. The first hit on google.co.jp for 綺譚 is "What does 綺譚 mean?"

http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/826391.html

It's a word coined by a famous novelist. According to the linked thread, he used the kanji to mean "beautiful and excellent story." It seems this meaning stems from classical Chinese.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FoxintheStars - 2010-12-29

Yes! Thank you very much!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-12-29

Thanks for the help guys. Magamo, I think it's interesting how you describe the reciprocal references provided by も, that's a cool way to think about it. It's kind of crazy how much similar looking grammar there is out there Tongue

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-12-30

[person's name]のこと

I have heard this at least two different places. What does it mean?

Nyan Koi Episode 1:
Mizuno: あたしのこと･･･嫌い？
Junpei:　いや、嫌いじゃない！ぜんぜん嫌いじゃない！

Otome Youkai Zakuro, Episode 13:
Daidai　(dying): あねじゃ・・・
Byakuroku:　だいだい！？
Daidai: やっぱり・・・助けに来てくれた。
Byakuroku:　当たり前だ！どうしてお前は？
Daidai: あねじゃのことが・・・ずっと羨ましかったんじゃ･･･

Suggested translation for this last line:
I was always so envious of you...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2010-12-31

It's extremely common.
As far as I know, [person's name]のこと just means almost the same as if のこと was omitted. The [person]のこと kind of hints at 'everything about [person]', ie. personality/attitude etc. I may me wrong though. magamo?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thurd - 2010-12-31

Here's magamo on [person's name]のこと

magamo Wrote:As for キミのこと, it's a (very) slightly figurative version of キミ. For example, 彼が気になる and 彼のことが気になる can both mean "I'm interested in him (in a romantic way)." But 彼のこと means various things about him, everything related to him or something along those lines. It's not literal "him." It's "him" with many connotations. It includes various things "him" evokes in you. So キミが好き directly says you love her while キミのことが好き is a little indirect but embraces a wider range of things. It's the same difference though.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-12-31

This use of 'x no koto' is covered in Maynard's _Expressive Japanese_, incidentally.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betadel - 2011-01-02

Hello,　can anyone tell me where do readings like these ones come from:

案山子　= かかし
大人　= おとな

You cannot make them out of any of their individual readings, 音読み or　訓読み, so what's the explanation? And how many compounds like that are there?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2011-01-02

IceCreamさん、すみません、聞いたことがありません Sad

Here's mine, this is from The World God Only Knows Episode 7
Keima: それにも、彼女はアイドルじゃないぞ。
かのんは自ら輝く、スターになっただ。

I wanted to know what 水から meant (from water?) but using the Microsoft IME convert and Rikaichan gloss I know what it is now Smile

The Microsoft IME is smarter than I am Sad

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2011-01-02

@Betadel - I'm not 100%, but I think it's historic things. There were a lot of words that existed before kanji, and for certain words, it just better to assign kanji based on meaning, without regard to reading. I guess a more recent example would be 煙草、たばこ. Although I know it's different, I think the idea is the same.

@IceCream -- That's what I was told. But it has different uses as well. 来る is just "to come," whereas 来たる, when used as a verb, is talking about something that you emotionally want to come. "Finally came," I guess you could say.
It's also used like "the next," or "the coming _event_" So like 'next christmas' or 'next season'
But the only time I see it used a lot is 笑う門に福来たる、a proverb or something like that. Probably a good word to recognize, but you probably won't be using a lot.

@jcdietz03 -- 自ら, as you have seen, isn't 水から。And I guess now that you found out know what it is...you don't really need me to explain it to you. Just watch out for みずから and おのずから。I'm not sure which is which, but one is like "on its own" and the other is "as a matter of course; naturally."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2011-01-03

Betadel Wrote:Hello,　can anyone tell me where do readings like these ones come from:

案山子　= かかし
大人　= おとな

You cannot make them out of any of their individual readings, 音読み or　訓読み, so what's the explanation? And how many compounds like that are there?

There are many compounds which regular readings of kanji are not used in. You'll also run into a ton of words where it's impossible to determine which kana goes to which kanji. There is a classification for such irregular words according to how they end up written irregularly. But I think it's better to think of them as exceptions because it doesn't help you guess the reading of each compound or kanji for a given word. If you're interested, the two examples in your post fall into the category of 熟字訓 (じゅくじくん). The etymological reason for irregular kanjification varies from word to word.

IceCream Wrote:what does 来たる mean? Is it just an old version of 来る？

It's classical Japanese or special usages in modern Japanese.

If it's used as classical Japanese, it's roughly the same as either 来ている, やってくる (i.e., くる with the progressive, continuation, or state grammar) or 来た (i.e., くる with the sense of completion, which I think Asriel was talking about). Because it is an inflected version of 来 + たり in classical Japanese, it is often written as 来たる so 来る (きたる) might be considered a nonstandard kanjification for this meaning, though no one really cares.

This classical Japanese grammar is not extremely rare in modern Japanese, so you'll occasionally see or hear it. Proverbs and adages often use this for obvious reasons. An example outside of proverbs etc. is an emphatic use in modern Japanese as in 夏来たる! for 夏がきた/夏がくる! in the blurb of an ad for a swimming pool, beach, and whatnot.

There is also きたる in the standard modern Japanese vocabulary too. If it is modern Japanese, technically きたる should be written as 来る, i.e., the same kanjification as くる (come). Of course, this isn't the most important thing in the world, and 来たる is also used.

One of the modern usages of 来る as きたる is pretty much the same as "next" or "coming." When used this way, this word is almost always immediately followed by a date, event or whatnot, e.g., 来る1月15日に予定されています. It's not rare in formal language. But you wouldn't hear it in spoken language very often. Formal announcements and invitations are good examples where you'll come across it fairly often. The antonym is 去る. This is also immediately followed by a date etc.

A tricky point is that 来るX is usually the closest X in the future. For example, 来る水曜日 is the closest Wednesday ahead of you, so if it's said on Monday, it's the day after tomorrow. In this sense, it is not always "next Wednesday," which may be the Wednesday of the next week regardless of when you say it.

Another modern use is the first half part of 来るべき (read as きたるべき, not くるべき), which again means forthcoming, upcoming, and so on. This is also followed by a noun. The difference is that 来るX is a simple "next" without no connotation while 来るべきX has the sense of "X is going to" or "X must" carried over from the classical Japanese word べし. For this reason, 来るべき is usually followed by a noun referring to an event and such rather than a date, and appears in a bit dramatic/emphasized sentence as in 来るべき日がやって来た (implying that a day like this can't be avoided, i.e., something unavoidable has happened or is going to happen today). This could also be analyzed as classical grammar so you can derive the meaning by seeing it as the combination of 来 + たり + べし + following noun. But this is so common that it's not strange to think of this as part of a modern vocabulary.

jcdietz03 Wrote:Here's mine, this is from The World God Only Knows Episode 7
Keima: それにも、彼女はアイドルじゃないぞ。
かのんは自ら輝く、スターになっただ。

I wanted to know what 水から meant (from water?) but using the Microsoft IME convert and Rikaichan gloss I know what it is now

The Microsoft IME is smarter than I am

A more important thing here is that 自ら and 水から are not homonyms, i.e., their pronunciations are different. If your ear is not tuned to Japanese pronunciation yet, they may sound similar to you. But they're completely different to a native speaker of standard Japanese. If you want to outsmart Microsoft IME, you might want to listen to the pitch pattern of each phrase carefully to learn the difference.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2011-01-05

Could I get a check on this sentence (rest is provided for context)?

彼はその文章を紙にいったんプリントアウトした。それから文書を保存し、ワードプロセッサーの電源を切り、機械を机の脇にどかせた。そしてプリントアウトを前に置き、鉛筆を片手にもう一度念入りに読み返した。余計だと思える部分を更に削り、言い足りないと感じるところを更に書き足し、まわりに馴染まない部分を納得がいくまで書き直した。浴室の細かい隙間に合ったタイルを選ぶように、その場所に必要な言葉を慎重に選択し、いろんな角度からはまり具合を検証する。はまり具合が悪ければ、かたちを調整する。ほんのわずかなニュアンスの相違が、文章を生かしもし、損ないもする。

I think it's something like:

"If a sentence is brought about by mere slight discrepancy in nuance, the [work] will also be harmed."

The usage of もし kind looks really strange in that position (I have mostly seen it in the beginning of a sentence), it's almost like a suffix or something. Is this standard usage?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2011-01-06

FooSoft Wrote:Could I get a check on this sentence (rest is provided for context)?

彼はその文章を紙にいったんプリントアウトした。それから文書を保存し、ワードプロセッサーの電源を切り、機械を机の脇にどかせた。そしてプリントアウトを前に置き、鉛筆を片手にもう一度念入りに読み返した。余計だと思える部分を更に削り、言い足りないと感じるところを更に書き足し、まわりに馴染まない部分を納得がいくまで書き直した。浴室の細かい隙間に合ったタイルを選ぶように、その場所に必要な言葉を慎重に選択し、いろんな角度からはまり具合を検証する。はまり具合が悪ければ、かたちを調整する。ほんのわずかなニュアンスの相違が、文章を生かしもし、損ないもする。

I think it's something like:

"If a sentence is brought about by mere slight discrepancy in nuance, the [work] will also be harmed."

The usage of もし kind looks really strange in that position (I have mostly seen it in the beginning of a sentence), it's almost like a suffix or something. Is this standard usage?

It's も + し. This も is the same particle you use to mean "and," "also" as in "FooSoftもIceCreamも日本語を勉強してる." The し is the conjugated version of "する = do" as in した (= did), します (= する + ます = I do), しよう (= する + よう = Let's do this thing!), 仕方 (= し + 方 = しかた the way I do it), and so on. In fact, your sentence ends with もする, which would be もし if there were one more XもY structure or another clause attached to it.

As you probably already figured out, it's 生かしもする + 損ないもする connected together. So the sentence is saying, "Even the slightest difference in nuance can make a big difference."

If it were もし as in もし明日晴れたら一緒に遊びにいこうね！, an accent would be put on も.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betadel - 2011-01-06

Thank you for the answers before. I have a few more questions.　Some phrases I've picked up from a visual novel (Umineko EP8, there are no spoilers, I'm just starting).

「川から桃がどんぶらこ？」

What does どんぶらこ mean? They were talking about Momotarou.

「そなたも元気そうで何よりだ。余命幾ばくとは片腹痛いわ。」

I don't get the grammar of the bold part, though I can make out what it means. This person (Beatrice) always speaks in this grandiose way, notice the そなた. She also uses わらわ to refer to herself.

「感謝せい、感謝せい。」　

It's Beatrice again saying they don't need to be thanked I think, but what is that せい?

「………返すというものを、要らん、やるとも言えぬしな。やれやれ。」

She's talking about something that they're returning to her. Again, I get the meaning but not the why.

「…強制された選択は、正しくとも生涯受け容れ難い。」

I've seen some strange uses of 生涯, does this phrase mean "a coerced choice is no doubt hard to accept throughout all your life"? I don't know but it feels weird to me.

By the way should I read 難い as かたい or　にくい?

「しゃあない。

お前かて人間やで。

そうそう人間、割り切れるもんとちゃう。」

This person uses 関西弁. He's forgiving someone or telling them not to blame themselves for a sin they committed. I don't get the bold part, humans are divisible? Also that とちゃう is confusing, it feels like it sometimes is just for emphasis but it sometimes acts as a negation like じゃない, I'm confused. Also is かて the equivalent of は　or what?

I had more but while typing this post out I figured out some of them haha, well I'm gonna keep building my txt file as I go through the game, hopefully I don't impose on all of you too much. This thread is just amazing.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2011-01-06

Thanks for explaining that magamo. It seems pretty obvious after you pointed out how that goes with もする in that sentence (I was actually wondering what that was connected to, now it makes sense).

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2011-01-07

Betadel, I don't know the answer to all your questions, but I'll jot down a few possibilities and hopefully others will chime in with suggestions/answers.

Betadel Wrote:What does どんぶらこ mean? They were talking about Momotarou.

From Kenkyuusha:
おばあさんが洗濯していると, 大きな桃が, どんぶらこ, どんぶらこ, と流れてきました.
As the old woman was washing the clothes, a large peach came bobbing and tumbling along on the current.

Quote:「そなたも元気そうで何よりだ。余命幾ばくとは片腹痛いわ。」

余命幾許(もない) - not long to live

Quote:「感謝せい、感謝せい。」　It's Beatrice again saying they don't need to be thanked I think, but what is that せい?

hmm I see this expression followed by "!" and kansaiben has an imperative form of する which is せい. So I wonder if it could be similar to 感謝しなさい　(be thankful for)?

Quote:「………返すというものを、要らん、やるとも言えぬしな。やれやれ。」 Again, I get the meaning but not the why.

Not sure I even get the meaning. If you can tell me the meaning, I can probably work out the why. :-)
要らん　＝　要らない　＝　not needed/necessary
やる　- I'm not sure here if it means する (referring back to 返す)　or offer, give, etc.
とも言えぬ　＝　とも言えない
しな　- has several possible meanings in Kansaiben, but most wouldn't fit grammatically here. Perhaps it's just し＋な (which is し+ね).
Could they be saying something like "we can't even talk about something like returning it ... it's just not necessary"?

Quote:「…強制された選択は、正しくとも生涯受け容れ難い。」
By the way should I read 難い as かたい or　にくい?

I'd probably read it as がたい (note the が btw) b/c it's a jouyou reading. (More likely I'd just skip over it...) :-) Fortunately, I think both are more commonly written in kana.

Quote:「しゃあない。
お前かて人間やで。
そうそう人間、割り切れるもんとちゃう。」

しょうがない。
お前だって人間だよ。
そうそう人間、割り切れるものじゃない (とちがう）。

Quote:とちゃう is confusing, it feels like it sometimes is just for emphasis but it sometimes acts as a negation like じゃない

More kansaiben. （と）ちゃう　（=と違う）appears at the end of phrases to mean じゃない, literally or rhetorically. と is sometimes dropped.

ちゃう used as a verb, adj. etc. also has a few variations and some pretty funky conjugations so watch for those. eg. past=ちゃうかった, adj=ちがうく.

Quote:Also is かて the equivalent of はor what?

かて(or かって) = でも, も、だって. An adverbial particle that follows a noun phrase.

It can also be a conjunction (like "even") replacing:
（だ）って、ても、でも、も、といっても、にしても、としても. This use often follows past tense verbs：今さら行ったかて間に合わへん。

Quote:I don't get the bold part, humans are divisible?

割り切れる can also mean to be without doubt or convinced. Eg:
そんなに簡単に割り切れるものだろうか.
Is it really possible to be so clearcut about it?
Could he be saying that it's only human to err (that humans are not always certain and able to make good decisions)?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betadel - 2011-01-08

Thanks a lot Thora. It was really helpful.

Thora Wrote:
Quote:「………返すというものを、要らん、やるとも言えぬしな。やれやれ。」 Again, I get the meaning but not the why.
Not sure I even get the meaning. If you can tell me the meaning, I can probably work out the why. :-)
要らん　＝　要らない　＝　not needed/necessary
やる　- I'm not sure here if it means する (referring back to 返す)　or offer, give, etc.
とも言えぬ　＝　とも言えない
しな　- has several possible meanings in Kansaiben, but most wouldn't fit grammatically here. Perhaps it's just し＋な (which is し+ね).
Could they be saying something like "we can't even talk about something like returning it ... it's just not necessary"?

Yeah I should've given more context. Beatrice was saying that they don't need to return anything to her, she has no use for it unlike them, but they keep insisting to repay her for her favors, etc. (the very line before it I think). So what I get from the phrase is something like: "To return it, I can't say 'it's unnecessary' huh? Oh dear."

What I don't understand is やるとも言えぬしな, the やる　confuses me. Shouldn't it be "要らん、とも言えないな" (I can't say 'it's unnecessary')?

And I guess しな　is し + な, even though it feels a little weird...　

Quote:I'd probably read it as がたい (note the が btw) b/c it's a jouyou reading. (More likely I'd just skip over it...) :-) Fortunately, I think both are more commonly written in kana.

Hmm, is there an easy way to search which are the jouyou readings of a kanji?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Javizy - 2011-01-08

Betadel Wrote:And I guess しな　is し + な, even though it feels a little weird...

That sounds okay to me. I'm not sure if it's technically correct or whatever, but I hear/use し＋ね quite a bit. Actually, I just found a couple of quotes from one of my Skype friends.

「そうね、時間ないしね」
「そうだねー、まだそんなに寒くないしね」

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2011-01-08

Betadel Wrote:Hmm, is there an easy way to search which are the jouyou readings of a kanji?

Katsuo's jouyou kanji spreadsheet has the official readings. (Includes recent changes).

http://www.kanjijiten.net/joyo/index.html has a 常用漢字表 searchable by reading, radical or stroke number. The recent changes are highlighted. (I don't think you can enter a kanji to search, but your browser's find function will eventually get you there.)

Perhaps some online dictionaries include jouyou reading info similar to offline ones I use. For eg:

漢字源:
難
《常用音訓》ナン／かた…い／むずか…しい

大辞線：
にく･い【△難い･△悪い】
(triangle indicates jouyou kanji, but unofficial reading)

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that official jouyou readings will always give the correct pronunciation. It's just one thing I might consider, depending on the material.

[Edited] I have a question: are abbreviated forms such as むずい for 難しい typically (always?) written in hiragana or katakana rather than kanji?