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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-12

Mostly it's just a more formal version of あと, but there are some compounds where it has to be read as のち (i.e. 後ほど). It's the same issue as 私 being わたし or わたくし -- you basically just have to guess.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-12-12

Could somone help me with these two questions?

世界はゆるい粥のようにどろどろとして骨格を持たず、捉えどころがない。
Is どころがない here essentially the same as どころではない, so with that verb stem it means "impossible to grasp"?

テレビゲームのし過ぎは子供の視力を弱める＿＿＿＿子供の基礎体力まで低下させているということだ。
a. もさることながら
b. にとどまらず

So I incorrectly picked the first option, and while looking back I see that まで may be a hint that にとどまらず is more appropriate, is もさることながら really gramatically incorrect here?

Edit: another thing too, sorry:
天吾はようやく目を開け、焦点をあわせ、テーブルの縁を握っている自分の右手を眺めた。世界が分解されることなく存在し、自分がまだ自分としてそこにあることを確認した。
Any ideas why this is ある and not いる? Isn't it still referring to 天吾?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-12-13

FooSoft Wrote:世界はゆるい粥のようにどろどろとして骨格を持たず、捉えどころがない。
Is どころがない here essentially the same as どころではない, so with that verb stem it means "impossible to grasp"?
It's one of Aどころ words such as つかみ所 and 見所. They are like one word versions of 捉えるところ, つかむところ, 見るところ, etc. In general, A in an Aどころ word is a verb so it roughly means "things to do A." But they're words on their own, so their meanings can be narrower or more figurative than literal interpretations.

捉え所 is particularly figurative and means "point or key which helps understand something." For example, if someone's argument zigzags making no point, it's 捉え所のない話. In your example, 捉え所がない means "difficult to grasp/understand/see," "vague and hard to define" or something along those lines. So your translation is spot on if you mean "understand" by "grasp," but the analyzing process to get to the right meaning is a little off. Also, 捉え所 strongly collocates with ない so it usually takes the form of 捉え所がない or 捉え所のない.

つかみ所 is often synonymous with 捉え所. But it can mean a literal handle/grip while 捉え所 is always related to understanding and such.
FooSoft Wrote:テレビゲームのし過ぎは子供の視力を弱める＿＿＿＿子供の基礎体力まで低下させているということだ。
a. もさることながら
b. にとどまらず

So I incorrectly picked the first option, and while looking back I see that まで may be a hint that にとどまらず is more appropriate, is もさることながら really gramatically incorrect here?
Grammatically speaking, もさることながら follows a noun, e.g., あの声優は演技力もさることながら、いろいろな声に対応できる (The voice actor has a good acting skill. But what impressed me even more is his various voice registers.). So it doesn't fit in the sentence.
FooSoft Wrote:Edit: another thing too, sorry:
天吾はようやく目を開け、焦点をあわせ、テーブルの縁を握っている自分の右手を眺めた。世界が分解されることなく存在し、自分がまだ自分としてそこにあることを確認した。
Any ideas why this is ある and not いる? Isn't it still referring to 天吾?
It seems like it's an excerpt from a novel or some written material. ある here seems to be referring to 天吾. My guess is that it's emphasizing that he is seeing himself as an object existing in the still existing universe rather than a person living in the world. If you strictly follow the grammar rule that animated things take いる, it must be いる.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-12-13

Thank you magamo!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-13

So I am looking for a good Bible in Japanese and I got confused between these two:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/新約聖書-A6判-フランシスコ会聖書研究所/dp/4805640006/ref=sr_1_246?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292281263&sr=1-246

http://www.amazon.co.jp/新約聖書-B6判-フランシスコ会聖書研究所/dp/4805640014/ref=pd_cp_b_1

The red one seems to be the regular New Testimant and the other is "単行本". So what would that be in this context? The letters of St. Paul?

Also, A6判 and B6判 are dimensions, right?
I know I am stretching this thread quite a bit but my parents offered to buy me a collection of books for Christmas and this is a book I know I will read.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-13

単行本 is just a size; it's larger than the 文庫本. They both have 970 pages and should have the same content.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-12-13

Ah, Thank you.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-12-13

"～でも" meaning "at least", e.g.:

「お茶でもいかがですか。」 How about some tea at least?

I tried looking for this usage of でも in the DOBJG, but I could only find the "even ~" usage (e.g. 「先生でも間違う」 Even teachers make mistakes.)

Could someone direct me to the correct entry in DOBJG? I tried ても entry, but it doesn't seem to fit the "at least" usage either. Or, if it's not in the dictionary, could someone tell me.

Thanks for any help in this regard.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-13

It's not in DOBJG. Someone said it was in DOAJG, which is strange, since it's a pretty basic grammar point. It's in JSL book 2.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-12-13

I had a flick through DOAJG, but I couldn't find it in there either. I guess the authors didn't consider it "grammatical" enough to put in, but instead just a suffix to be learnt like any other vocab.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-12-13

vinniram Wrote:I had a flick through DOAJG, but I couldn't find it in there either. I guess the authors didn't consider it "grammatical" enough to put in, but instead just a suffix to be learnt like any other vocab.
Did you look up entries explaining Japanese equivalents of "something like" or "things like"? (I don't know if there is an entry for that.) The でも in your example doesn't seem to be "at least" to me. It seems like the でも as in は？ 証拠でもあんのかよ。(What, do you have proof or something?) It indicates that A in Aでも is an example of things of the same kind.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-12-13

thanks for clarifying that まがも. I actually reread the text I picked up this usage from, and realized that interpreting it as "at least" isn't really that accurate. A better way with a sentence like "お茶でもいかがですか" would be "How about some tea or something?"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-12-14

外に席が空いてないのでここに座ってもいいですか。

Context: An employee is asking a fellow employee who is sitting at a table whether he can sit next to her.

My translation so far is: "Besides, the seat wouldn't happen to be vacant would it (?), so is it alright if I sit here?"

1) "外に" seems really out of place here. What does it actually mean here, because I'm sure it doesn't mean "in addition, besides", because the person asking to sit down hasn't said anything else to warrant saying "in addition".

2) 空いてない means "isn't vacant", but is he saying it in a "this seat isn't vacant, is it?" sort of way, therefore the negative? If not, please explain, because I don't understand why it isn't just 空いてる.

Thanks for any help.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2010-12-14

vinniram Wrote:外に席が空いてないのでここに座ってもいいですか。

Context: An employee is asking a fellow employee who is sitting at a table whether he can sit next to her.

My translation so far is: "Besides, the seat wouldn't happen to be vacant would it (?), so is it alright if I sit here?"

1) "外に" seems really out of place here. What does it actually mean here, because I'm sure it doesn't mean "in addition, besides", because the person asking to sit down hasn't said anything else to warrant saying "in addition".

2) 空いてない means "isn't vacant", but is he saying it in a "this seat isn't vacant, is it?" sort of way, therefore the negative? If not, please explain, because I don't understand why it isn't just 空いてる.

Thanks for any help.
I think you've just mixed up your kanji is all. 外 is そと, which has the general meaning of 'outside' or 'another place'. Maybe you were thinking 「それに」?

You're right about what 空いてない means, but it's not being used in the 'isn't it?' way.

The one thing that's a bit confusing to me is the particle に, since it's not what I would have expected. Anyway, it means either "None of the seats outside are free, so is it okay if I sit here?" Or "None of the seats over there (/none of the other seats) are free, so is it okay if I sit here?" (I have a suspician that perhaps the に implies the latter, whereas a の would imply the former)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-12-14

vinniram Wrote:外に席が空いてないのでここに座ってもいいですか。

Context: An employee is asking a fellow employee who is sitting at a table whether he can sit next to her.

My translation so far is: "Besides, the seat wouldn't happen to be vacant would it (?), so is it alright if I sit here?"

1) "外に" seems really out of place here. What does it actually mean here, because I'm sure it doesn't mean "in addition, besides", because the person asking to sit down hasn't said anything else to warrant saying "in addition".

2) 空いてない means "isn't vacant", but is he saying it in a "this seat isn't vacant, is it?" sort of way, therefore the negative? If not, please explain, because I don't understand why it isn't just 空いてる
Is 外に pronounced ほかに here? Depending on context, it can be そとに too. If it's ほかに, then it means "other than (something implied)," "except (something implied)," "anywhere else," "something else," and so on. It's like "except-ly," if that makes sense. If you already know 他に, then 外に is another kanjification for the exact same word. Anyway, here are some examples to help get the meaning:

ほかに何かご注文はございませんでしょうか？(at a fast food restaurant etc.)
Anything else?

でもほかにやることないし。
But I don't have anything better to do.

ちょっとお願いしていい？　ほかに頼める人いないんだ。
Can I ask you a favor? You're the only person I can count on.

So your sentence is "May I sit here? All seats are occupied (other than this)."

If 外に is そとに here, then it means "No seats in the terrace are available, so can I sit here?" "No seats are available outside, so..." etc. It requires a specific context to interpret this way though.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2010-12-14

Haha, it's funny that I didn't think of the ほかに reading, considering that I learned ほかに waaaay before I learned the word　そと. (Once again, since I used the textbook JSL)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-12-14

From donna toki:

人は主任のした行為を批判するが、彼の置かれた立場を考えれば彼がなぜそうしたか、理解にかたくない

???

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-14

What part of it don't you understand?

(Is "donna toki" that 500 grammar expressions book?)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-12-14

None of it, basically. It seems to say, something like:

A person criticises the person in charge, but if I think about where he was placed, it's easy to understand why.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-12-14

@Taurus: This is what I understood from your post:

yudantaiteki: What part of it don't you understand?

Taurus: None of it, basically. Except that when I translate it, I demonstrate that I understand what it's saying.


It's like saying that while you may criticize the person in charge, if you think about where they're coming from, you can understand why they did it.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-12-14

Asriel Wrote:It's like saying that while you may criticize the person in charge, if you think about where they're coming from, you can understand why they did it.
Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up!

I think I come across a fair few sentences like this in textbooks, where the lack of context makes it difficult for me to understand the true meaning.

Like, for example, in this particular sentence (人は主任のした行為を批判するが、彼の置かれた立場を考えれば彼がなぜそうしたか、理解にかたくない)...

Is that first 人 an actual person? Or people in general? Like, is it saying that people have a general tendency to criticise the people in charge? Or is it referring to a particular instance in which an actual person has criticised the person in charge? Or could it be both?

Similarly, I took 彼の置かれた立場 to mean something like 'the position he was put in', but is this a physical position (like, say a particular seat in an auditorium), or an abstract one (like, someone's point of view)? Or could it be both?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-12-14

True, without the context you can't be 100% who the 人 is referring to...
But just given nothing but that, I'd probably surmise that it's more of a general "people have a tendency to..." thing.

People may criticize the person in charge, but if they would look at the position he was in, it's not hard to understand why he did it.

In english, you could substitute the 'general you' in for "people" instead.
"You come home from work, and you don't want to start on your homework, know what I mean?"
While I'm not talking about "you" in particular...it's just kind of understood that it's a general statement.

立場 is generally more of an abstract "standpoint." I'm not sure if I've seen it used in a physical sense. So like 彼の立場 could be like "his side of the story," in a manner of speaking.
The 置かれた part implies that the reason he's in that 立場 is because he was placed there. What he did may not be his personal feelings, but since he was put in charge, he had to make the decision to act like that based on the position that he was placed in.

Like if you work with your best friend, and your boss tells you to fire him. While you don't want to fire him, your boss says you have to...so given the position you were placed in, you've gotta fire your friend; or get fired yourself.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-12-14

Thanks again for the clarification!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - julianjalapeno - 2010-12-15

I've got a question that has bugged me for a while. Is there a rule that determines when 大 is pronounced 「だい」 and when it's 「たい」 in a compound? Same for 人 and the 「じん」 and 「にん」 pronunciations.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-12-15

Not really, you just have to remember when each reading is used.