+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nohika - 2010-11-22
FooSoft Wrote:I think you are understanding it correctly, it's just a noun that means manner, manner, etc. And すきって言わせる just modifies this noun (方法).Thank you! That makes a little more sense now. I really do appreciate it - as a beginner it's far more "decoding" than actually reading, hah. But I did know where to look up the grammar points, and that's a good start, I think.
So it's literally "The means to make [someone] say: '[they] love [someone]'".
Thank you again. =)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-11-22
A more idiomatic translation:
すきって言わせる方法
How to make [someone] say [they] love [you]
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-22
Does this look right? Not sure about the 1st and 3rd lines. First line was kind of a guess, and 4th line just sounds a little funny (probably just the character being a smartass though).
A:「でも、溜まり溜まったものが…」
B:「あるのか？」
A:「あると言えなくも…ない」
B:「困った奴だな…」
A: "But I have stuff to do..."
B: "Do you really?"
A: "Even if I don't say that I do... I don't"
B: "What a troubled fellow..."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-11-24
さっき、新聞屋さんがお金を取りに来ました。
This sentence is confusing me.
さっき = some time ago
新聞屋 = local office in charge of newspaper delivery
さん = ?? (can this suffix be used with places as well as people? or is it different meaning here?)
The most I can get out of it is: "A while ago, the newspaper office came in order to take money" (???). If someone could shed some light on this I would appreciate it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
@vinniram
Yeap, honorifics can be used with job titles and many other things in addition to names. As far as 新聞屋, that would just be any place (or person) that sells newspapers. A nice trick is to do google image search, sometimes that works better than a formal definition
And さっき is indeed, some time ago. So much like you translated it, it's just "Some time ago, the newspaper man came to pick up the money"
Edit: I just noticed in your translation you said newspaper office, but it's really just the newspaper man.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-11-24
ah okay, that makes more sense. Thanks
XとYとZのうちのどれかを上げますがどれがいいですか。
With this sentence, my textbook gives the translation:
"I will give you one, either X, Y or Z. Which would you like."
I guess they're talking about X Y and Z being houses from うち. But, if you're using と as "... or ... or ...", doesn't it have to follow every single item being listed, e.g. "XとYとZと". Or can't you do that because you can't have "との" next to each other? Thanks for any help on this one.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
No, うち isn't of the house type here, it has a completely different meaning. It's more like "within". That's why you use と. You construct a set (X and Y and Z) and from this set you get to pick which ever one you want.
And the trailing と after the last item is optional, and at least I personally haven't seen it used that often in this particular grammar.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2010-11-24
Wow FooSoft's been earnin' some serious Whuffie in this thread.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-11-24
vinniram Wrote:But, if you're using と as "... or ... or ...", doesn't it have to follow every single item being listed, e.g. "XとYとZと". Or can't you do that because you can't have "との" next to each other? Thanks for any help on this one.You can put one more と so it reads XとYとZと if that's what you want to say. But its meaning would become wacky if you do it in your example sentence. If you mean "I'll give you either X, Y or Z," then it'd be either XとYとZのどれかをあげる or X、Y、Zのどれかをあげる (You make a short pause at the two "、" points. The duration is about the same as one mora.).
The wording "XとYとZとの" also makes sense if you put a stress on the third と by using pitch accent. But as I said, its nuance changes. Here is an example where XとYとZとの makes perfect sense in a sentence:
XとYとZとの間には深い関係がある.
X, Y, and Z are closely related to each other.
You can also say XとYとZの間には深い関係がある. The difference in meaning is somewhat similar to "between" and "among" in English. When you use と after Z, you're picturing each item individually like "between X, Y, and Z" while the の-less version is more like "among X, Y, and Z." A tricky point is that this difference occurs even when you have only two items. In fact, "XとYとの (with a stress by pitch accent on the second と)" gives a strong feeling of individually looking at each item and considering their relations while "XとYの" doesn't. So it's not exactly the same as the difference between "between" and "among." The individual-ness which "との" gives is very strong.
Now when you say something like "I'll give you either X or Y," you're not picturing the two items individually to consider their relation in such a strong degree. So it sounds bizarre if you say XとYとZとのどれかをあげる.
If you want a quick dirty tip, here is a simple practical rule:
XとYとZの -> almost always ok,
X、Y、Zの -> ok but gives a slightly formal tone,
XとYとZとの -> You may come across this pattern when it's followed by 間には etc. Don't use it unless you're 100% sure what your sentence is going to sound like.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ems573 - 2010-11-24
Hey guys, back with another KO2001 question...
This particular sentence I just came across today:
A社は従来の製品に比べて高性能の新製品を発売した。
And the official translation is:
"A Ltd. released a new product that has higher performance compared to any existing products."
But I was thinking, should the translation be something more like:
"A company released their new high functionality product based on comparisons with the old product."
There seem to be fewer grammatical leaps of faith in my translation... I know I'm probably missing something though. Thanks in advance.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-11-24
従来の製品に比べて高性能 -- "High performance compared with existing products"
is what's modifying the 新製品 that are being 発売した。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
Asriel Wrote:従来の製品に比べて高性能 -- "High performance compared with existing products"Hmm, I wouldn't have thought this, and would have also thought that since this is a て form it's not modifying the coming noun, but rather saying that "Upon comparing to products up to now" which leads into "developing high performance products" (basically joining two sentences).
is what's modifying the 新製品 that are being 発売した。
So if it were modifying 高性能 wouldn't it have to be に比べる or something? At least that's the way it works with による/によって. Or is に比べて just special like that?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-11-24
Well that's a good point, and you're definitely not wrong.
The に比べて isn't /directly/ modifying it, in the way that 高い would modify ビル in 高いビル
Rather, it's like 従来の製品に比べて、高性能の新製品
Where it's like "Compared to existing products, new high performance goods ... "
I'm not sure how or what the grammar is or how it works, but it's almost as if the "従来に比べて" modifies the ”高性能” is 'high performance when compared to existing goods'
But what I'm trying to convey is that 従来の製品に比べて高性能の新製品を発売した isn't saying "released a new product based on comparisons..." but rather that the performance of this new one is higher "when compared to existing products"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
Ah, when I think about it more, に比べて becomes kind of adverbial, kind of like に関して, so it modifies everything that follows it, so it's like A社は従来の製品に比べて(高性能の新製品を発売した), kind of like if you were to say 早く(高性能の新製品を発売した). That's my guess anyway
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-11-24
FooSoft Wrote:て forms can link to predicates inside modifying sentences.Asriel Wrote:従来の製品に比べて高性能 -- "High performance compared with existing products"Hmm, I wouldn't have thought this, and would have also thought that since this is a て form it's not modifying the coming noun, but rather saying that "Upon comparing to products up to now" which leads into "developing high performance products" (basically joining two sentences).
is what's modifying the 新製品 that are being 発売した。
So if it were modifying 高性能 wouldn't it have to be に比べる or something? At least that's the way it works with による/によって. Or is に比べて just special like that?
A社は従来の製品に比べて高性能の新製品を発売した。
The basic structure of this sentence (without any modifiers) is XはYをZ. X is Ａ社, Y is 新製品, and Z is 発売した. The rest of the sentence is a modifier to show what type of 新製品 the company is selling.
Here, the modifying sentence is 従来の製品に比べて高性能だ. In this case the te-form 比べて is linking to the predicate 高性能だ. The だ changes to の in order to make the sentence modify 新製品. Grammatically it might be possible that 比べて links to 発売 instead, but I don't think that 比べる here is an action that the company is taking so that doesn't really work. If this means that the company doing two actions (comparing, and then selling), I think it has to be を比べて and not に. Xに比べて means "Compared to X", not "[Someone] compares [something] to X".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
Interesting! Is this て forms in general or just certain expressions? The reason that this has me a bit confused is that in 完全マスター there is definitely a distinction (at least about による).
For instance,
地震に＿＿＿被害は予想以上だった。
a. よって
b. よれば
c. より
d. よる
So at least in my mind, よる is the correct answer (and it is) because we are modifying 被害, whereas よって would be more like creating a compound sentence or something.
So it would be (IMHO, please correct if wrong):
"The earthquake related damage was greater than anticipated." (による)
vs.
"Due to the earthquake, damage was greater than anticipated." (によって)
Confusing!
Edit: Moreover certain expressions as に関して don't seem to have this nuance, I'm thinking に比べて might just be one of them.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-11-24
This is a different circumstance because よって could only connect to 予想以上だった because it's the only predicate in the sentence (被害 is not a predicate here, it's just a noun).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
Wow! Thanks for explaining that, I guess that I had a flawed understanding of how that worked for a while now.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-11-24
Although to be honest, I'm not sure I see why によって is wrong in the above sentence -- I think your understanding of the difference is right. But my grammatical knowledge gets shakier when you get to higher-level things; I can usually understand the sentences but I have a harder time saying what the difference might be between two things or whether one is right/wrong.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-24
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly why によって is wrong, I would just think it has a different meaning. Maybe there has to be a comma there or something?
地震によって、被害は予想以上だった。
Although in every single problem, the correct thing to do always seems to be to not go for て form when the thing before it is a noun (and not the predicate as you said). But maybe the comma makes that difference
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-11-24
地震によって被害は予想以上だった。-> No.
地震によって被害は予想以上となった。-> Ok.
The latter means that the earthquake made things worse. The former sentence doesn't make much sense because it doesn't say what the earthquake did. If you want to use によって while keeping the sense that the worth-than-expected damage was all done by the earthquake (as in the correct answer 地震による被害は予想以上だった), it'd be something along the line of 地震によって引き起こされた被害は予想以上だった, where it's clear that 地震 did 引き起こす.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-11-24
Oh yeah, that makes sense; I feel like I should have seen that. Thanks for the response.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-25
I've started reading 1Q84, and I've got two things maybe someone can clarify:
父方の祖父は福島県の出身で、その山の中の小さな町だか村だかには、青豆という姓をもった人々が実際に何人かいるということだった。
As far as I can tell, this is just the normal usage of か to list stuff. However, why is だ used there as well? Isn't だ too assertive to be used with the question marker? Maybe this isn't strictly a question marker (I think of it as though it is), but I've seen だか be used on several occasions at the ends of sentences. How is だか different from just か? Is it just umm... more assertive?
彼女はもう一度目を閉じて、音楽に耳を澄ませた。ヤナーチェックが個人的にどのような人物だったのか、青豆は知らない。いずれにせよおそらく彼は、自分の作曲した音楽が一九八四年の東京の、ひどく渋滞した首都高速道路上の、トヨタ?クラウン?ロイヤルサルーンのひっそりとした車内で、誰かに聴かれることになろうとは想像もしなかったに違いない。
The other thing I'm struggling with is to understand some of the other uses of volitional. I don't think this is the vol. + と/が pattern to signify ても, because と just looks like the quotation marker for 想像する. What does なろう do here that なる wouldn't?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-11-25
First of all, thanks to everybody who answered to the 審判 problem
In the July N2 test there was this question:
28 取材
１ 学期末試験の範囲を友達に取材しました。
２ デパートに買い物に行く前に、営業時間を取材しておこう。
３ インターネットは、簡単に地図を取材できるので便利です。
４ あの選手の練習の様子を取材したときは、とても緊張しました。
I guess my deck is old. There are soooo many words showing up in N2 tests, that I have in the JLPT 2 category *sigh*
Anyways, I guess I don't fully understand the meaning of 取材 or the last sentence, because I chose #3, but correct is #4. Can anybody explain to me why?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-11-25
取材 is gathering data, and I've mostly seen it being used for something you'd see news reporters doing. So the last question totally fits that. I translate it as something like:
When I was covering that player's appearance/condition during practice I felt very nervous.