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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-05
Mushi: Any person who has read the "Fairy Tail" manga would know 魔導師. It may use different kanji in the manga, I don't know. There are four choices in the EDICT entry for 魔導師 - this is the one the author chose. EDICT says not a priority entry.
Thank you for the help. I was also confused by 位置づけ （EDICT entry). EDICT doesn't have establish as a meaning for this. Goo dic doesn't have an entry for this.
I was also confused by my lack of Japanese skills. Isn't it usually subject first, then predicate, then verb? But in this sentence the predicate (training of people of skill) is first.
I think I get it now. Is there a better machine translator? I was as confused as the machine. Thank you for the help.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-09-05
すみません。今、このサイズだけなんですが。
I think this sentence translates as: "Sorry. But, at the moment, (there is) this size only (, you see)."
I'm just wondering, after だけ (only), what is the な doing there, before the explanatory んです? Is な used with the だけ particle usually?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-09-05
vinniram Wrote:すみません。今、このサイズだけなんですが。だけ joins up to the 'explanatory の' (which is what that ん is) in the same way as nouns and na-adjectives: with な, or だった for past-tense.
I'm just wondering, after だけ (only), what is the な doing there, before the explanatory んです? Is な used with the だけ particle usually?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-09-05
FooSoft Wrote:「今限定で穏やかな頬は、氷でできた彫像のように、透き通って溶けてしまいそう。」「今限定で穏やかな頬」→ The face is not usually 穏やか; it's only 穏やか right now, and for a limited time.
"This is the last time; this calm face - like a statue made of ice, it seems like it's going to become clear and melt away".
jcdietz03 Wrote:この国では「戦士」「魔導師」「僧侶」などさまざまな職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づけ国を挙げて支援をしているThis is how I read it:
[この国では][戦士・魔導師・僧侶などさまざまな職業の人材育成こそ][重要と位置づける]。
[国を挙げて][支援をしている]。
この国ではXを重要と位置づける → In this country, X is ranked as important.
国を挙げてYをしている。→ The whole country does Y.
X = training soldiers, wizards, priests, etc.
Y = supporting such training.
vinniram Wrote:I'm just wondering, after だけ (only), what is the な doing there, before the explanatory んです? Is な used with the だけ particle usually?だ becomes な before の.
「*このサイズだけだのです」→ 「このサイズだけなのです」
Technical explanation: の requires the preceding verb to be in attributive form 連体形. In modern Japanese, this form looks exactly like the 'dictionary' form 終止形 for most, but not all, verbs (eg. だ).
Edit: 「…が重要」→ 「…を重要」
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-05
iSoron Wrote:この国ではXが重要と位置づける → In this country, X is ranked as important.Where can I find information about how と is used here?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-09-05
jcdietz03 Wrote:I was also confused by my lack of Japanese skills. Isn't it usually subject first, then predicate, then verb? But in this sentence the predicate (training of people of skill) is first.I think the part that's confusing (to me as well), is that this is a compound sentence. The "け" is what jumps out at you and saves you in the end, as it is a pretty strong indication of a separation between related supporting ideas. I therefore parsed it as:
I think I get it now. Is there a better machine translator? I was as confused as the machine. Thank you for the help.
職業（の人材育成こそ重要と位置づけ）国を挙げて支援をしている
So it's composed of these two ideas:
職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づける (the development of these professions is emphasized)
職業が国を挙げて支援をしている (these professions support the nation)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-09-05
Mushi Wrote:The "け" is what jumps out at you and saves you in the end, as it is a pretty strong indication of a separation between related supporting ideas.Yes. This random article I found via google has a similar usage of 重要産業と位置付け、国を挙げて支援をしている where they've helpfully added a comma.
Quote:I therefore parsed it as:While I freely admit that this sentence had me a bit stumped, I don't think you can parse it this way where you pull the 職業 out from the left side of a の to use later. I think you need to take the whole noun phrase 職業の人材育成こそ, for something more like:
職業（の人材育成こそ重要と位置づけ）国を挙げて支援をしている
So it's composed of these two ideas:
職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づける (the development of these professions is emphasized)
職業が国を挙げて支援をしている (these professions support the nation)
職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づける (we consider the training of people in these occupations to be important)
(職業の人材育成こそ)国を挙げて支援をしている (we support (the training of people ...) throughout the whole country)
So overall my guess is:
この国では「戦士」「魔導師」「僧侶」などさまざまな職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づけ国を挙げて支援をしている
"In this country we consider the training of people in various occupations such as warrior, mage and priest to be important, and support it throughout the whole country."
(NB that in this analysis the こそ is masking an を, not a が.)
Now all we need is a referee :-)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2010-09-05
[edit: I responded before seeing pm215's post, which I obviously agree with :-) ]
Mushi Wrote:職業の人材育成こそ重要と位置づける (the development of these professions is emphasized)As iSoron mentioned, I think the country as a whole is the subject：
職業が国を挙げて支援をしている (these professions support the nation)
[国を挙げて]Yをしている。 The whole country does Y.
Also,
この国ではXが重要と位置づけられる X is considered important.
この国ではXを重要と位置づける [somebody] considers X important
So the training can be the object for both parts. (eg Considering it especially important, this country fully supports human resources training for occupations such as warriors, wizards and priests.) Using passive might sound more natural in English, though. I don't know the source, but I'm guessing that the technical dryness of 「職業の人材育成」 was intentional humour - taxpayer funding of wizards and priests.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-09-05
jcdietz03 Wrote:Where can I find information about how と is used here?It's just the quotation particle. 「重要」と位置づける
pm215 Wrote:Now all we need is a referee :-)I actually agree with both you and Thora;「戦士・魔導師・僧侶などさまざまな職業の人材育成こそ」is an object. The way I used the passive voice in my translation was misleading.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-09-05
jcdietz03 Wrote:Is there a better machine translator? I was as confused as the machine.Nope, I don't think any of them are good enough that they're not likely to seriously mislead you. I'm afraid you'll have to keep asking us humans :-)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-09-05
Another question about な:
私は十七日に大阪に行くから十八日のがいいな。
What does that な and the end mean? Is it somhow implying explanatory のだ?
On a side note, why is replacing the が particle near the end with で incorrect? Just a bit earlier in the paragraph from which this sentence comes, there was a sentence: "私は小さいのでいいから、あなたが大きいのを食べてください。" I'm really confused as to when to use が as opposed to で with "いい".
Thanks if you can help.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2010-09-05
Without the benefit of further context, it says:
"going to osaka on the 17th, so the one on 18th is best."
The な is hard to explain, you sort of need to get a feel for it. In this case i think the speaker has been given a choice of dates for something and is expressing maybe the 18th is the best day for him/her.
if you replace the が with で it sounds like ので (because) and the sentence becomes weird. Because going to Osaka on 17th, because 18th, good.
In the second sentence the ので also means 'because' translating to something like:
Because i'm small, go ahead you eat the big portion.
のが on the other hand, is the nominalising の plus the subject marker が.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - quincy - 2010-09-05
vinniram Wrote:Another question about な:It doesn't really have any specific meaning, kind of like a more casual version of ね
私は十七日に大阪に行くから十八日のがいいな。
What does that な and the end mean? Is it somhow implying explanatory のだ?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-09-05
Haven't posted in months, so this is gonna be a little bit longer, sorry ;o;
These are questions I collected while studying for N2 grammar.
I't not always a question about actual 2kyuu grammar, though!
Some questions might be really easy to answer. I tend to ask stupid questions, sorry! ;o;
Here we go:
1) させる:
a) 鈴木教授のご指導のもとで、卒業論文を完成させた。
b) 契約書に書かれている以上、期日までにこの仕事を完成させなければならない。
Why is "saseru" used here and not "suru"? Politeness?
So in a) it's honorific for the prof.?
Is it the same in b)?
Sorry, I'm still horrible with honorific/humble language!
2) ながら:
ボブは日本にいながら、洋食ばかり食べている。
So, this is not so difficult. "nagara" can be "while" and "although", right?
In most example sentences I came across, you basically could use both and it still makes sense (with pretty much the same meaning).
In this case:
While Bob's in Japan, all he's eating in Western food.
Although Bob's in Japan, all he's eating is Western food.
How do you usually know which "nagara" it is??? Even with more context you can't really tell, right?
3) Nuances:
a) 食べるだけ食べる
b) 食べられうだけ食べる
c) 食べたいだけ食べる
Can somebody explain in detail the exact difference?
I struggle with the first one (a) a lot!
It seems to be something like: I eat just to eat?!
b) I eat as much as I can
c) I eat as much as I like
4) 年をとったと言ってもビルは元プロ選手だ。私では勝てないだろう。
The "de" in the second sentence confuses me. What function does it have? Why is "de" used here? I don't get it!
I'd rather say: 私は(ビルに)勝てないだろう。
5) 昨日は三時間しか寝ていない。道理で眠いわけだ。
Why is "寝ていない" used here and not 寝なかった?
6) 彼女は、何を聞いても笑っているきりで、答えない。
Why is "何を" used here? Shouldn't it be 何も (nothing)?
7) 「ブレーンストーミング」と言うからには、発言に制限を設けてはならない。
I only know the grammar structure "-te naranai" so far, but what does "-te ha naranai" mean? Something like "ha ikemasen"?
8) 無料のネットサービスには様々な個人情報を要求してくるものがある....
してくる??????
9) 次第: struggle with the meaning
a) 以上のような次第で、退職することになりました。
b) この世の中はお金次第だと言う人もいる。
a) I retired because of the reason(s) mentioned above. ???
b) There are people who say that money rules the world. (what's the role of "shidai" here??)
Thank you very much in advance!!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-09-05
I have another question:
いいえ、フランス製でして、ピエール・カルダンのでございます。
こちらは7000円でしてイタリーのです。
I'm not sure what the 「でして」 means in these sentences. Is it an example of te-form being used to mean "and"? But then, what is 「でして」 the te-form of, because the te-form of です is just で.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zachandhobbes - 2010-09-05
Seconding how someone said な is kind of like ね.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2010-09-06
That's not really true though.
ね adds a questing tone, so it's like saying "isn't it?". You say what you think and are cuing the other person to respond.
あついですね = hot isn't it?
な kind of adds a sense that you're expressing your feeling, which can add more nuance to the sentence.
あついな =f**k it's hot.
or in response to someone telling you they're going on holiday to Hawaii:
いいな = that's good (kind of adds the a nuance of "you lucky bastard" "I envy you")
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-06
This one I can do. The others are too hard for me.
Quote:5) 昨日は三時間しか寝ていない。道理で眠いわけだ。He did sleep, but less than three hours. Yours says three hours didn't sleep (well how long did he sleep?).
Why is "寝ていない" used here and not 寝なかった?
Quote:7) 「ブレーンストーミング」と言うからには、発言に制限を設けてはならない。My textbook says one of the ways to say "must" is neg stem + なくてはならない. So 行かなくてはならない is I must go. This sentence doesn't fit that pattern, so I don't know.
I only know the grammar structure "-te naranai" so far, but what does "-te ha naranai" mean? Something like "ha ikemasen"?
Wait - from Tae Kim page. Please study the following Tae Kim page for usage of this. Section 1 example 3.
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/haveto.html
Short answer: Xてはならない = must not do X.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-09-06
@chochajin --I'm gonna give yours a go...
chochajin Wrote:1) させる:It's not really about politeness, it's about the verb 完成. You're making the report complete, as opposed to completing the report.
a) 鈴木教授のご指導のもとで、卒業論文を完成させた。
b) 契約書に書かれている以上、期日までにこの仕事を完成させなければならない。
If it were politeness, it would be referring about something that the professor did, and it'd be される, or something keigo.
Quote:3) Nuances:I'd say b) and c) you got right, but I'd say that a) is more like 'Eat only as much as you eat.' No restrictions or anything, but just kind of like...eat as much as you do. b) is eating until you can't eat anymore, c) is eating as much as you want, whereas a) is eating as much as you eat -- so I guess similar to c). You eat as much as you end up eating...thats about it
a) 食べるだけ食べる
b) 食べられうだけ食べる
c) 食べたいだけ食べる
Quote:5) 昨日は三時間しか寝ていない。道理で眠いわけだ。It's the whole 'state of being' thing. I guess I don't know any specific rule it follows, but experience tells me that when talking about sleeping and stuff, it's always ーている. Unless it's talking about something actually -in- the past, like "last week, I slept 10 hours all together D:" or something. But "today's" sleep is -ている
Why is "寝ていない" used here and not 寝なかった?
Quote:6) 彼女は、何を聞いても笑っているきりで、答えない。The も is in there, except it's after the 聞いて.
Why is "何を" used here? Shouldn't it be 何も (nothing)?
It's not "Even if you don't ask her anything..." (ask her nothing)
it's "Anything you ask her" (ask her anything)
So she'll laugh regardless of what is is that you ask her, and not reply.
Quote:7) 「ブレーンストーミング」と言うからには、発言に制限を設けてはならない。Yep, pretty much the same thing.
I only know the grammar structure "-te naranai" so far, but what does "-te ha naranai" mean? Something like "ha ikemasen"?
てはいけない essentially = てはならない = must not do
なくてはいけない essentially = なければならない = must do (must not not do)
Quote:8) 無料のネットサービスには様々な個人情報を要求してくるものがある....Yep, してくる, also: していく
してくる??????
In your example, it's like "come out" or "come about"
Imagine you're signing up for wireless internet, and you're doing all the procedures, and all of a sudden, it asks for a bunch of personal information. From your perception, the requests just kind of "came out."
It can also be used to show something gradually "coming about:"
最近、寒くなってきたね vs 最近、寒くなったね
In this case, してきた shows that there was somewhat of a process involved. The coldness "came about" gradually.
I wish I could remember what IJ says, because the way they had it in there, I felt it was good. Unfortunately, this "come about" or "come along" is the best I can come up with right now... :/
I'm afraid I can't give it my go at some of the others. Some, (number 9 in particular) are...I feel I understand them, but not good enough to explain.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-06
The next sentence is:
でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よ
Context: Two people are students at a military academy.
人：あ、おはようー
移動？ 同じ演習だっけ？
他人：私たち、屋内講義なのー
人：えー、いいなあ
他人：うふふ、いいでしょー
でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よ
何なら変わる？
I didn't understand 淡々と so I looked it up on Space ALC.
In a straightforward manner
With no feeling
So, it's a straightforward technique call-upon lecture?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-09-06
chochajin Wrote:3) Nuances:Try the Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar's entry under 'dake', which says type (a) can mean be either 'as much as one can' or 'as much as one wants' depending on verb and context. Types b and c you have right (modulo the typo in b).
a) 食べるだけ食べる
b) 食べられうだけ食べる
c) 食べたいだけ食べる
Can somebody explain in detail the exact difference?
Quote:4) 年をとったと言ってもビルは元プロ選手だ。私では勝てないだろう。I'm not going to try to attempt to distinguish nuances, but I think this で is the て form of だ, doing what yudantaiteki said once way back: "A て form can always (or nearly always) be looked at as representing some sort of existing state, completed action, or started action". は is doing its usual contrastivy negativy thing. Compare "11人対12人では勝てない", "ミスをしないテニスだけでは勝てない", "今の私では勝てない" -- all the same grammatical form.
The "de" in the second sentence confuses me. What function does it have? Why is "de" used here? I don't get it!
I'd rather say: 私は(ビルに)勝てないだろう。
Quote:8) 無料のネットサービスには様々な個人情報を要求してくるものがある....Asriel is right here, but yeah, you should look up てくる and ていく in your favourite grammar reference.
してくる??????
Quote:9) 次第: struggle with the meaningThe thing about 次第 is that there are a number of different senses which KM (for instance) doesn't really distinguish. プログレッシブ英和中辞典 has a pretty nice breakdown.
a) 以上のような次第で、退職することになりました。
b) この世の中はお金次第だと言う人もいる。
a) I retired because of the reason(s) mentioned above. ???
b) There are people who say that money rules the world. (what's the role of "shidai" here??)
Sentence (a) has come up in this thread at least twice before... It's sense (2): circumstances/reasons.
For (b), noun+次第+だ/で means something like 'depends on'. "Everything in this world depends upon/is determined by money" => "money makes the world go round" &c as a more liberal translation. This is sense (4): それによって決まる様子.
Don't confuse this with masu-stem+次第 or verbal-noun+次第 which mean "as soon as"; sense (5). You can probably ignore senses (1) and (3) for the moment :-)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2010-09-06
pm215, "modulo" ??
nerd. ;-) Even my Dad the physics guy couldn't help me. Wikipedia did, however.
jcdietz03 Wrote:でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よSounds vaguely Socratic. :-)
So, it's a straightforward technique call-upon lecture?
The context indicates it's a negative assessment. I'm guessing a boring lecture in which some prof drones on in monotone about dry technical equations...
術式: Not sure - something like scientific or technical equations?
唱える: argue for or against something; propose a theory; advance an argument, lecture; preach; etc.
淡々(と): without emotion; bland; uninterested; philosophical; etc. (describing the manner of lecturing)
I think taking a look at some definitions and example sentences in some non-Edict dictionaries might be helpful.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-09-06
Two quick questions
逢坂は無表情のままで「知るか」と一言言い残し、さらにスタスタ歩いて行く。こんな奴の言うことなど聞くのではなかった。
What's the point of nominalizating 聞く and negating it as opposed to just saying 聞かなかった? Is it the same thing, or does it have a more "explanatory" tone to it?
「だから頼んでないって言うのよ」
「あれ、おまえ、言っておくけど最悪だったぞ？ シンクにたまってた水が腐っててよお……」
I don't understand how おく is used here. I understand how it can be used in connection with verbs to indicate "doing something in advance/preparation", and having the added meaning on causative verbs of "allowing to do". Here I don't see either situation, because it is being used in response to a line that was just spoken.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-09-07
@foosoft -- 聞くのではない is kind of like a command to not listen. You may have heard people say like...戦うんだ！ or 逃げるんじゃない！ In this case it's saying like "Fight!" or "Don't run!"
But since it's using の, you could say "(this is something that) You will fight!" or "(this is not something) That you run from!"
So, you could think of it like things that somebody like him says "were not something to listen to."
"言っておく" I would say is something like "I'm just gonna get this outta the way..." or "I'm just gonna come out and say this"
Like, it's the "do in advance" meaning, except that he's stating his opinion in advance of the rest of what he's going to say. Prefacing the rest of the statement with his opinion straight away.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-09-07
Thanks for the reply, both explanations makes sense. Come to think of it, on the 言っておく part I guess was mis-interpreting which speaker it was referring to, I assumed it was the first. Now that you mention it however, it does make sense as a preface for what's going to be said next by the second speaker.