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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-08-22

Thanks for the replies!

yudantaiteki Wrote:かかさず is the same thing as かかさなくて; it just means "not embarassing her, and..." It's a set of three things that apply to ために.
That's what would make sense however, since かかす means to fail/miss かかさなくて means to "not to fail to embarass" meaning to embarass? I don't see how I can get "not embarass" out of this

Quote:I interpreted this as the でも meaning "or something like it". Maybe we need to see the previous sentence, but I think this is 夢を見る -> 夢でも見る, not 夢で見る -> 夢でも見る.
Some more context, but I think you are probably right about the を elipsis. I did not expect that to be (not) there.
「――午前二時。不意に目が覚め、竜児は憮然と目を見開いた。なにか夢でも見ていた気がするが……丑三つ時を指す時計を見て、ぼりぼりと腹を乱暴に掻く。」

Quote:でも, once again, means "or something like it". せっかくだから does indeed mean "I've gone to the trouble, so..." (depending on the context).
Very good to know (on both this and previous sentence). I have not seen でも explained as "things like" before, but it makes sense here. I was trying to see it from a "X でも = even X" or a "X でも = including X" which I guess are close but not close enough to make sense.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-08-22

Mushi Wrote:You have to excuse me, as I still have a lot of trouble with kanji, as I'm only part way through RTK1. But I don't see the problem you mention with this sentence. Also, it's not "partitioned" the way you've translated here. With the semicolon, you effectively made this into two sentences, which changes the meaning.
Yeah, the partioning was kind of a lame way out on the translation hehe, I totally know what you are talking about but sometimes it's kind of tricky to for me phrase て form without creating horrible run-on sentneces.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2010-08-22

FooSoft Wrote:Thanks for the replies!

yudantaiteki Wrote:かかさず is the same thing as かかさなくて; it just means "not embarassing her, and..." It's a set of three things that apply to ために.
That's what would make sense however, since かかす means to fail/miss かかさなくて means to "not to fail to embarass" meaning to embarass? I don't see how I can get "not embarass" out of this
In this case かかさず doesn't come from the かかす that means to fail/miss; there's a set expression, 恥をかく, that means to be embarrassed or lose face. So, はじをかかす is the causative form of that: to cause someone to be embarrassed or lose face. 恥をかかさず is just the negative of that, so, 'without causing her to be embarrassed; without embarrassing her.'

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-08-22

Ahh, that explains it. Rikaichan didn't pick up that expression and I didn't know better Tongue

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-22

FooSoft Wrote:I have not seen でも explained as "things like" before, but it makes sense here. I was trying to see it from a "X でも = even X" or a "X でも = including X" which I guess are close but not close enough to make sense.
I find this quite interesting, I'm still trying to get used to written Japanese! It never occurred to me that でも produced so many homophones. I'm accustomed to differentiating between these based on context and stress. Here, I'd expect to hear a rise at the end of 夢, which cues which でも follows, but the context is an even stronger clue, since the other forms of でも after 夢 is practically ありえない, unless the sentence was discussing a very odd topic.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-08-23

I came across a passage in my textbook which is confusing me a lot (it's an advertisement):

今日はとてもお買い得な電子レンジです。今、お買い上げの型にはすてきなペンダントをプレゼント。さあ、今直ぐ電話をしてください。電話番号は、東京＿です。おまちがえのないよう、お願いします。

There's a few things I'm unsure about.

お買い得 (okaidoku) お買い上げ (okaiage) - what do they mean? Do they mean the same thing? I'm really confused about these words. Are they both na-adjectives?

What are they talking about in that second sentence? I thought they're talking about a microwave, so why do they start talking about pendants and presents?

The final sentence, I don't understand what おまちがえのないよう means.

thanks if someone can help clarify this. It was the script from a listening comprehension exercise, so I'm guessing the textbook expects me to skip over things I don't know to answer its preset comprehension questions, but I want to actually comprehend the whole passage.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-23

If you buy now, they'll give you a pendant as a present. They also don't want you to make any mistakes remembering / calling their phone number.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2010-08-23

Watch out for the use of お before nouns in polite language.

From WWWJDIC:

買い得; 買得 【かいどく】 (n) bargain
お買い上げ; 御買い上げ 【おかいあげ】 (n) (hon) buying; purchasing

Is 型 supposed to be 方?

On that assumption,
お買い上げの方 = people who buy (the microwave)
プレゼント(する) = to give as a present
ペンダント is the object of プレゼント（する）, お買い上げの方 is the recipient.

"To people who buy (the microwave), we give a wonderful pendant."

おまちがえのないよう　- comes from 間違え（まちがえ）, a mistake. よう here is roughly "so that" -- "Please be sure so that you don't make a mistake (when you dial the number)"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-23

Mushi Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:Maybe we need to see the previous sentence, but I think this is 夢を見る -> 夢でも見る, not 夢で見る -> 夢でも見る.
Ooh, so that's what he was thinking! I was wondering why he was tripped up on this point. Smile
If you don't already know about the でも meaning "etc" or "something like it", it's very easy to misinterpret it. You won't even realize it's something you don't know. Interestingly, I was not able to find this meaning in either DBJG or DIJG although I know it's in Japanese: The Spoken Language. Maybe I just didn't look in the right place, but it should have its own entry since it's grammatically different from the usual particle で + も and it has an unpredictable meaning.

(Yet another reason I'm skeptical of the whole "exposure will solve everything" advice...)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-23

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Mushi Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:Maybe we need to see the previous sentence, but I think this is 夢を見る -> 夢でも見る, not 夢で見る -> 夢でも見る.
Ooh, so that's what he was thinking! I was wondering why he was tripped up on this point. Smile
If you don't already know about the でも meaning "etc" or "something like it", it's very easy to misinterpret it. You won't even realize it's something you don't know. Interestingly, I was not able to find this meaning in either DBJG or DIJG although I know it's in Japanese: The Spoken Language. Maybe I just didn't look in the right place, but it should have its own entry since it's grammatically different from the usual particle で + も and it has an unpredictable meaning.

(Yet another reason I'm skeptical of the whole "exposure will solve everything" advice...)
I agree with you there - I think it's most efficient to combine both types of study. But interestingly, I did learn this form through exposure - constant exposure! This is how my parents always addressed me, whether it was, "Are you dreaming or something, come on, we're heading out", or "What were you doing, stampeding cattle in your room or something?"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-23

Well, if your parents are speaking Japanese to you I don't think that advice necessarily applies because you are already getting 50 times more exposure than most language learners.

But I agree with you on that for greatest efficiency and success you should combine both. Nobody should read a description of a grammar point and assume they have completely mastered it, but I think it's naive to imagine that you will simply magically pick up every grammar point just by exposure.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Katsuo - 2010-08-23

yudantaiteki Wrote:If you don't already know about the でも meaning "etc" or "something like it", it's very easy to misinterpret it. You won't even realize it's something you don't know. Interestingly, I was not able to find this meaning in either DBJG or DIJG
It's in the DAJG, which as well as the advanced material ties up a few loose ends. The index in that book is useful because it covers all three volumes.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-08-23

yudantaiteki Wrote:
FooSoft Wrote:「なにか夢でも見ていた気がするが……丑三つ時を指す時計を見て、ぼりぼりと腹を乱暴に掻く。」
[...]
「杞憂だったか、と、息をつき、せっかくだから便所にでも行くことにして冷たい板張りの台所へ素足で向かう。」
せっかくだから does indeed mean "I've gone to the trouble, so..." (depending on the context).
Yes; in particular assuming these two sentences are near each other I have a suspicion that in this context we might be looking at "since I'm awake/out of bed anyway".

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-08-23

Thanks for your really indepth response fillanzea.

I just have a couple more questions:

How come the noun お買い得 is modifying another noun, 電子レンジ, by putting な in between, as in: お買い得な電子レンジ. Why isn't the modifier の? I thought な is used with the な-adjectives mainly, and の when nouns modify other nouns.

With: 素敵なペンダントをプレゼント。 Because プレゼント is a noun which becomes a verb using the auxiliary する, should they have written: プレゼントします。? Is it alright with these sorts of suru verbs if you omit suru when it's affirmative non-past?

Thanks if anyone could clarify these last few points. And thank again for that detailed response before.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-23

vinniram Wrote:How come the noun お買い得 is modifying another noun, 電子レンジ, by putting な in between, as in: お買い得な電子レンジ. Why isn't the modifier の? I thought な is used with the な-adjectives mainly, and の when nouns modify other nouns.
お買い得 is apparently considered to be a な-adjective by that writer, although google returns hits for both お買い得の and お買い得な. As I mentioned in a previous post, the difference between "noun" and "na-adjective" is much less clear than the English names would lead you to believe, and so you see some crossover. About the only thing that seems to be set is that な can only be used with words that describe some kind of quality (although not all quality words use な). お買い得 seems to describe a quality.

Quote:With: 素敵なペンダントをプレゼント。 Because プレゼント is a noun which becomes a verb using the auxiliary する, should they have written: プレゼントします。? Is it alright with these sorts of suru verbs if you omit suru when it's affirmative non-past?
It's common in newspaper and advertisement writing, and occasionally occurs in speech as well.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2010-08-23

vinniram Wrote:Thanks for your really indepth response fillanzea.

I just have a couple more questions:

How come the noun お買い得 is modifying another noun, 電子レンジ, by putting な in between, as in: お買い得な電子レンジ. Why isn't the modifier の? I thought な is used with the な-adjectives mainly, and の when nouns modify other nouns.
I couldn't really explain this in terms of grammar, but it seems like 買い得 gets used a lot as a な adjective even though technically it isn't one, and to me な just sounds more natural here -- maybe just because it's acting very much like an adjective within the context of the sentence.

Quote:With: 素敵なペンダントをプレゼント。 Because プレゼント is a noun which becomes a verb using the auxiliary する, should they have written: プレゼントします。? Is it alright with these sorts of suru verbs if you omit suru when it's affirmative non-past?

Thanks if anyone could clarify these last few points. And thank again for that detailed response before.
No, it's not normally okay to omit する. This is advertising-speak.

I wish I could give you a more useful answer for either of these, but I'm not enough of a grammarian for it!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-23

Fillanzea Wrote:Is 型 supposed to be 方?
I learn so much hanging out here! I didn't even realize this difference. I'm still relying very heavily on the phonetics of kanji, so here, since I happened to recognize this 型 (kata) from "B Gata H Kei", I figured, oh yeah, we all know what かた means in this context.

So I mentally didn't even bother to think about where it was the *right* かた. I wonder when you get to the point when you start to think more in terms of the meaning of each kanji? I find this hard, particularly since my background is spoken Japanese, then written kana, then English, so I've always been in the mode of thinking of characters as sounds.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-08-23

yes sorry about that. my textbook gives the sentences in just kana, so when I was putting it into kanji, I used 型 instead of 方 because I was thinking they must have been talking about some sort of "model" of microwave. すみません＾＾

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-08-24

another question ^^

ビールをたくさんかったんですね。

I have a feeling this may be a question with a really obvious answer. I'm wondering why かった is being used after the na-adjective たくさん. Shouldn't it be "たくさんだった"? I thought かった is used with i-adjectives (e.g. 高かった) or when changing ない to なかった (e.g. 魚じゃなかった). Thanks if someone could clarify this.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asriel - 2010-08-24

たくさん is being used as an adverb for かう, or 買う. It's not the "かった" you're thinking of, it's the conjugation of かう to the past --> かった

So they bought a lot of beer.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vinniram - 2010-08-24

ah that makes more sense now. I hate it because my textbook usually uses all kana, so it's hard to read sometimes. ありがとう。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-24

Plus, there's the を after ビール, which means you did something to the beer, like bought it, drank it, etc. So when you see that particle, you'd rule out ths use of です, since you're not going to "is" the beer, or "many" the beer.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zachandhobbes - 2010-08-24

I've always wondered this when I see it - what is the little extra ん after かった doing there?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mushi - 2010-08-24

zachandhobbes Wrote:I've always wondered this when I see it - what is the little extra ん after かった doing there?
かったんです is like a contraction of かったのです.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jcdietz03 - 2010-08-24

It's pattern んです。
I'm not good at Japanese, but here are two SRS cards.

ビールをたくさん買った。
I bought a lot of beer.

女:どうしてお金がありませんか？
男:ビールをたくさん買ったんですね。
Woman: Why don't you have any money?
Man: It is that I bought a lot of beer, you see.

んです = "It is that" of the above sentence.
So you take the main clause "I bought a lot of beer." Then that main clause "is," somehow. So (without ね at the end) it becomes "It is that I bought a lot of beer." Used to give explanations and often used to give a reason as in the example above. When I read that line, it's clear to me that he is explaining a reason rather than stating a fact.

We don't have an んです equivalent in English. "It is that" construction is never used in speaking and uncommonly used in writing. We say "because" at the front (rather than んです at the end) to give a reason.