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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-05-18

Okay, I have a phrase that I'm having difficulty with, from Omohide Poro Poro.

The phrase is this:

でもま山奥はともかく田舎の景色ってやつはみんな人間が作ったもんなんですよ

And the subtitle translation is this:

But what you see here is all made by man.

But there are a few things I don't understand.

That first ま, is that just an interjection?
What does 山奥はともかく mean?
What does that やつ mean.

It's set in Yamagata, in case any of it is dialect.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-18

IceCream: I'm not entirely sure; perfectives are often used in modifiers to mean not past tense, but just the idea that the state is "real" rather than in the future (because for instance, 来る人 means "the people that will come" so 来た人 is the people that are here now).

Taurus Wrote:でもま山奥はともかく田舎の景色ってやつはみんな人間が作ったもんなんですよ

And the subtitle translation is this:

But what you see here is all made by man.

But there are a few things I don't understand.

That first ま, is that just an interjection?
Yes.

Quote:What does 山奥はともかく mean?
XはともかくYがZ means "Not only X, but also Y is Z" or "Starting with X, X and Y are both Z" -- I believe that X is usually something that is obvious or expected, and Y is often something that is less obvious or less expected.

Quote:What does that やつ mean.
"Thing" -- it's sort of a more casual version of こと or もの.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-18

でも but
ま　like/you know (interjection)
山奥 deep in the mountains
ともかく anyhow/anyways/besides
田舎の景色 countryside scenery
ってやつ <essentially like のは, points at 田舎の景色 as a thing>
みんな all
人間 human
作った made

But you know, other than deep in the mountains, the countryside's scenery is all man made.

Quote:XはともかくYがZ means "Not only X, but also Y is Z" or "Starting with X, X and Y are both Z" -- I believe that X is usually something that is obvious or expected, and Y is often something that is less obvious or less expected.
I don't think the pattern is that specific. I have seen it used in this way:
見た目はともかく、安くておいしい, roughly meaning "It may look bad, but it's cheap and tastes good"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tobberoth - 2010-05-18

yudantaiteki Wrote:IceCream: I'm not entirely sure; perfectives are often used in modifiers to mean not past tense, but just the idea that the state is "real" rather than in the future (because for instance, 来る人 means "the people that will come" so 来た人 is the people that are here now).
But isn't that simply because 来る is what Genki calls a group 3 verb? Like 死ぬ, those verbs aren't active but static, they signify a change which is instant and then followed by a new state. It's still just past tense, but what is in the past is the change, not any action.

By your logic, at least by your example, it would seem that "group 3 verbs" can never be in the past tense.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-05-18

Thanks!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-18

Tobberoth Wrote:By your logic, at least by your example, it would seem that "group 3 verbs" can never be in the past tense.
Well, I'm only talking about the occurrences within modifying sentences. When a perfective form like 来た shows up in a modifying sentence or subordinate clause, the tense tends to depend on the entire sentence rather than the た itself.

The confusing thing about forms like きた in Japanese is that they really are perfective rather than past tense; in some cases it works out to the same thing, but in other cases it does not. 来た後で電話してください is actually future, not past, and note that in English you cannot say "*After you got there, please call me".

You have phrases like 違った人 and 込んだ電車 which are not past tense at all, and where trying to interpret them as past tense can actually mess up your understanding of the whole (e.g. if you think that 込んだ電車 means a train that was crowded but now is not).

I will admit that I do not fully understand the usage in the example IceCream posted, though. The overall meaning is clear enough, of course, but I'm not sure I can give an exact explanation for why いった and 来た were used instead of いう and くる, or how the meaning might change if one or both of the perfectives were changed to imperfectives.

＊　いやーん 、やーん【感動詞】 驚きを表現する言葉。何かを拒絶している意味合いは無い。「心が動揺せずに居られない」といった事から来た表現である。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tobberoth - 2010-05-18

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Tobberoth Wrote:By your logic, at least by your example, it would seem that "group 3 verbs" can never be in the past tense.
Well, I'm only talking about the occurrences within modifying sentences. When a perfective form like 来た shows up in a modifying sentence or subordinate clause, the tense tends to depend on the entire sentence rather than the た itself.

The confusing thing about forms like きた in Japanese is that they really are perfective rather than past tense; in some cases it works out to the same thing, but in other cases it does not. 来た後で電話してください is actually future, not past, and note that in English you cannot say "*After you got there, please call me".

You have phrases like 違った人 and 込んだ電車 which are not past tense at all, and where trying to interpret them as past tense can actually mess up your understanding of the whole (e.g. if you think that 込んだ電車 means a train that was crowded but now is not).

I will admit that I do not fully understand the usage in the example IceCream posted, though. The overall meaning is clear enough, of course, but I'm not sure I can give an exact explanation for why いった and 来た were used instead of いう and くる, or how the meaning might change if one or both of the perfectives were changed to imperfectives.

＊　いやーん 、やーん【感動詞】 驚きを表現する言葉。何かを拒絶している意味合いは無い。「心が動揺せずに居られない」といった事から来た表現である。
Hmm, I think chigau and komu are also in this "group 3" and I think that's why those situations become sort of odd. I know you're talking about modifying sentences, but if you think about it, it's true in any situation for those words. You can't really say 電車が込んだ, or maybe you can, but it would mean "the train suddenly became crowded", and in the same way, you can't say 人が違った for the same reason. It's still past tense in those situations you mentioned, but it's the change which is past, the state is continuous. 込んだ電車 means that in the past, the train became 込むed and it's still in a state of 込んでいる. This is covered in IceCreams favorite text, that Saburou fellows grammar book, where he talks about two kinds of verbs, active and static. IMO it's a really interesting area which is covered in WAY too little detail in most textbooks, because whether a verb is active or static makes a big difference to how the conjugations are used. Like how when you say 彼が来ている it doesn't actually mean "he's comming", it means "he came and he's in the state it left him".

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-05-19

I'd still like answers and/or explanations for the following questions (from May7th), so if somebody could hel me, that would be nice Smile
Some of them were arleady answered, but as I still have the feeling I don't understand them, I'm asking again :/

chochajin Wrote:#3 旅行をきっかけにして、木村さんと親しくなりました。
With a trip as a start, I got closer to Mr. Kimura.
Is that what the sentence says more or less?

#4 さすがに最高級と言われるワインだけのことはある。味も香りもすばらしい。
"だけのことはある" <- huh? I can't figure it out. If "dake" is supposed to mean "as much as ...", then I still can't figure it out. Any help?
ほしいだけ本が買えたらどんなにいいだろう。
Same goes for this sentence. I really struggle with だけ-constructions it seems :/
だけに／だけあって is no problem, just だけ alone gives me headaches -.-

#6 この店のラーメンは味はともかくとして、値段は安い。
私は、話すことはともかく、書くことは苦手だ。
I also struggle with "はともかく". I can't figure out the meaning of the sentence.
E.g. Does it mean that the ramen taste good or not, that she/he is good at speaking or not?
The ramen in this shop, putting the taste aside / not considering the taste, are cheap.
I'm not a good writer, putting speaking aside.
(sorry if my English is incorret ..)

#7 計画を変更するに際しての問題点を検討する。
I can't decode this sentence. I tried, but all I get out of it is something like:
We're researching the problematic point which is ..... on the occasion of changing the plan.
I can't bring the sentencs parts together -.- .....

#8 チンさんを先生として、中国語の勉強会を開いた。
を・・・として=・・である So does this mean: Being a teacher, Mr. Chin held a Chinese study group. ???


The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-19

Quote:#7 計画を変更するに際しての問題点を検討する。
I can't decode this sentence. I tried, but all I get out of it is something like:
We're researching the problematic point which is ..... on the occasion of changing the plan.
I can't bring the sentencs parts together -.- .....

sorry, i don't get it either...
に際して is more or less like に関して so it just means "problems dealing with the changes in the plan" or "problems with changing the plan".

Quote:さすがに最高級と言われるワインだけのことはある。味も香りもすばらしい。
It's probably best to just take this as an idiom. 最高級と言われるワインだけのことはある is like "It's not called top-class wine for nothing."

Perhaps literally you could read this as "There is something about only this wine."

Quote:この店のラーメンは味はともかくとして、値段は安い。
私は、話すことはともかく、書くことは苦手だ。
I must admit these are confusing me a little bit; my impression was that they meant something like this:
"Never mind the taste of the ramen, it's cheap."
"Never mind my speaking ability, my writing ability is bad."
The second, in particular, seems strange, though.

The example sentences in my grammar guide are clear enough, i.e. 費用の問題はともかく、旅行の目的地を決める方が先です。　　But that doesn't quite seem to match with the examples above.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - caivano - 2010-05-20

This is probably gonna be very easy but I can't really search it so thought I'd ask here.

ダドリーはもう自分の四半分平らげ、豚のような目でハリーの分を〜
玄関先でだれかが話をし、笑い、〜

So in these 2 sentences I'd expect the て form but instead it seems to be the ます form without the ます providing the same function. Is that what's happening or am I missing something?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Groot - 2010-05-21

Er, I don't know, Caivano -- I'm a relative beginner. I hope it's OK for me to go ahead and post my own question without answering yours?

Interestingly, the very first post in this thread answered my first question, about a male greeting　（うーす） in よつばと. But I also had two separate questions from the very same panel of the very same manga, and a third question from later on. By way of background, I've worked through all of "Japanese the Manga Way" and most of Genki 1/2 and Tae Kim, so I kinda sorta understand the basics of grammar. But forgive me if my questions are blindingly newbish.

1. After his greeting, the speaker (Jumbo) seems to say that another guy isn't coming because it's too hot outside, but the conjugation of "coming" looks unfamiliar to me. Jumbo says:

来ねえって

Is this just a varied pronunciation of

来ないって

meaning "x said he isn't coming"?

2. In the very next bubble, Jumbo seems to say something disparaging about the lazy guy who isn't coming because of the heat. Jumbo says:

やっぱタノだー

I peeked at a translation that says this means "He sucks", or some such. But danged if I can't figure that out from my various dictionaries!

3. Finally, a bit later Jumbo is fighting with Yotsuba's dad, and dad has just put on some pants, which apparently is a bit unusual for him (!). Jumbo taunts him about the pants, and dad replies:

ズボンくらいはかせる！！

When I first read this, I read it as "Long pants cause to put on", and I thought maybe dad was explaining that he put them on because he had an unexpected (female) visitor earlier. But the translation I read had it as "Leave my pants out of this." And as I look in my dictionary, I see a couple of verbs read as "haku", one meaning put on, one meaning sweep: 履く　///　掃く　　, both of which conjugate to hakuseru in the causative. So did dad mean the latter? Maybe it's a pun? Also, I assume the relevant particles have been omitted. This is one of many examples in which I wish the author had used a kanji! With Heisig alone, I have a rough sense of each of those two kanji; with kana, I'm left to guess which is meant. So, er, which is it?

General comment: I'm new at this, but having finished RTK1, I consistently find that my troubles reading manga stem more from kana than from kanji. Once you've got a kanji, you can zero in on the meaning pretty quick (especially thanks to Heisig). But with kana, if I can't find the expression in a dictionary, I'm often at a loss, as in this final example. At least in this case I can tell where the words end (I think), but sometimes even that eludes me -- the words pile together in a kana soup. I know this will get better as my vocabulary expands, but for now it's a challenge. Also, I did just get a new dictionary for my iPhone ("Japanese"), and it spots conjugated verbs and lets me type in extended kana phrases, deciphering each separately as I type, which is helpful.

Anyway, can anyone offer help on my three examples?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - caivano - 2010-05-22

I found the answer in the end
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/formal.html#part4

Groot, I think:

1. Yes you're right, that kind of conjugation is kinda rough sounding man talk. You don't hear it so much in real life.

2. やっぱ is a short version of やっぱり I guess the guys name is タノ and he is saying something to the effect of 'That's just like Tano (to not come)'

3. ズボンくらいはかせる！！ くらい is like - to the extent of, はかせる is the causative of はく so I think it means - I even had to wear trousers.

I could be wrong tho.

the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar are really good when doing this kinda thing.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Groot - 2010-05-22

Thanks, Caivano. I do have the Basic dictionary, and I use it all the time. I probably should invest in the Intermediate and Advanced, too. Do they overlap? I.e., does the Advanced one include everything in the first two plus new stuff? Or does each have unique content, meaning I should buy both the Intermediate and Advanced?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - caivano - 2010-05-22

They have unique content so I generally check the basic first then the Intermediate, I don't have the Advanced yet... That use of くらい was in the Intermediate.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-22

Are you sure about your transcription of ズボンくらいはかせる！！ I still don't really understand it. I have a feeling that くらい here means "at least" in the sense of "At least do this minimum thing if you're not going to put in more effort", but the whole doesn't really make sense to me.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - caivano - 2010-05-22

No I'm not sure at all, especially without seeing the actual thing :$ Looking again the japanese is non past and my answer was past so I guess it is wrong... I don't know what it means then... !

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Javizy - 2010-05-22

Is it maybe the permission use of the causative? Can you use it to say 'I'll be allowed to...'? So in this case it would mean something like 'I'm at least allowed to wear some ants!'. I've never seen this sort of usage before though...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-22

No matter how I parse it I can't make any sense of it; is it はかせろ instead of る?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Groot - 2010-05-22

Well my goodness, I did transcribe it wrong. My apologies; next time I'll triple-check before I post. Anyway, it's はかせろ , not る . Either way, I still don't get it! Those four characters appear in a second line, so we see

ズボンくらい and then
はかせろ !!!

which is why I didn't read は as a topic marker. It doesn't usually start a new line, does it?

As far as I can tell, I did transcribe the rest, including くらい , correctly. My aging eyes often do have trouble squinting at manga, but in this case I have no excuse -- the text is pretty large because the guy is shouting. Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-22

ズボン pants
くらい at least
はかせろ let/make (me) wear

At least let me put on some pants! / At least put some pants on it (doll/baby etc)

は isn't a particle here.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2010-05-22

"Cinnabon cry: Hack a cero!" - It's part of a junk food marketing campaign cross-over with an anime.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2010-05-23

IceCream Wrote:旅行をきっかけにして、木村さんと親しくなりました。
With a trip as a start, I got closer to Mr. Kimura.
Is that what the sentence says more or less?

it says:
I decided to use the trip as a chance to get closer to 木村さん。
きっかけ： chance / excuse
にして：　decided to (make 旅行 into きっかけ)
Isn't にして just part of the きっかけにして construction? I thought this sentence just meant 'I used the trip as an opportunity to get closer to Kimura-san'. (Which is slightly different to your interpretation: your interpretation refers to a point in time before the trip took place; mine refers to a point in time after the trip took place. I wonder which is correct...)

IceCream Wrote:#4 さすがに最高級と言われるワインだけのことはある。味も香りもすばらしい。
"だけのことはある" <- huh? I can't figure it out. If "dake" is supposed to mean "as much as ...", then I still can't figure it out. Any help?

I don't think this is "as much as" here. It's just the normal "only" meaning of だけ. So:
as expected, he only has what can be reffered to as "top class wine" The flavour and scent are superb.
さすがに as expected,
最高級と言われるワイン what can be reffered to as "top class wine"
だけのことはある he only has.
味も香りもすばらしい。 The flavour and scent are superb.
I just took it to mean 'It's as is to be expected of what's called 'top-class wine'. The scent and the taste is superb.'

IceCream Wrote:ほしいだけ本が買えたらどんなにいいだろう。
Same goes for this sentence. I really struggle with だけ-constructions it seems :/
だけに／だけあって is no problem, just だけ alone gives me headaches -.-

This one probably is "as much as": When / if i buy a book i want as much as this (This Much), it's gonna be well good.
And I thought this was something like, 'How good would it be if I could buy the book(s) that I want.'

IceCream Wrote:#7 計画を変更するに際しての問題点を検討する。
I can't decode this sentence. I tried, but all I get out of it is something like:
We're researching the problematic point which is ..... on the occasion of changing the plan.
I can't bring the sentencs parts together -.- .....

sorry, i don't get it either...
I think this means 'We will consider the problematic points caused by the changing of the plan'.

Anyway, I've got another question. What does this sentence mean:

話の内容は摑めた。

I can't find 摑めた in any of the dictionaries that I've tried...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2010-05-23

Looks like old kanji for　掴む（つかむ)　- here, it's used in the sense of to grasp the meaning or to understand (past potential)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-23

Yeah, you see that sometimes because of the question as to whether kanji outside of the Jouyou list should be written in simplified forms.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Pauline - 2010-05-23

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Tobberoth Wrote:By your logic, at least by your example, it would seem that "group 3 verbs" can never be in the past tense.
Well, I'm only talking about the occurrences within modifying sentences. When a perfective form like 来た shows up in a modifying sentence or subordinate clause, the tense tends to depend on the entire sentence rather than the た itself.

The confusing thing about forms like きた in Japanese is that they really are perfective rather than past tense; in some cases it works out to the same thing, but in other cases it does not. 来た後で電話してください is actually future, not past, and note that in English you cannot say "*After you got there, please call me".
One of my teachers (a native Japanese) explained that Japanese and Swedish (or English) have different ways of expressing when events happen. This is how she explained it:

* In English, past tense is used for past events, present tense for present events and future tense for future events (i.e. absolute tense system)

* In Japanese, the tense of the main clause expresses if you are talking about past, present or future events, while the tense of subordinate clauses tells if they occur before (past tense) or after (future tense) the main clause (i.e. relative tense system)