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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-18
yudantaiteki Wrote:Yes, that's actually why I'm confused, I think. Here's some context:FooSoft Wrote:I'm back with a couple new questions!That seems like a strange sentence; are you sure you typed it in correctly? 別に often goes with negative predicates, not positive ones.
別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ
Does this mean "Apart from that, I'm a beginner so it's OK"? I'm confused if it means that or "I'm not really a biginner, so It's OK".
岡崎: 「向こうは元プロだぞ？ 突っ込まれたらバレるじゃないか…」
春原: 「別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ」
春原: 「何質問されても、ドラムってモグラ叩きに似てますよね、って答えておけよ」
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-18
Are you combining multiple speech bubbles? If it were 別に。こっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ。 then it would be "Not really. I'm a beginner so it's OK."
Maybe this is just some usage of 別に that I'm not very familiar with.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-18
Each one of those lines is an individual bubble. I looked at a bunch of example sentences on jisho.org, there were instances of it being used as "[something] aside ..." but this doesn't seem to be an example of that.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-19
FooSoft Wrote:別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよThis sentence means "No problem. It's not like we pretend to be professional musicians," "Nah. We pretend to be amateurs. It's totally ok to not know much about drums" or something along those lines.
Does this mean "Apart from that, I'm a beginner so it's OK"? I'm confused if it means that or "I'm not really a biginner, so It's OK".
It seems some Japanese teachers think 別に usually appears in negative predicates so the usage in your sentence is unusual. Maybe this kind of use is considered wrong in standardized tests, but you'll frequently hear/read 別に in positive predicates in real life. It's sort of like a preamble that gives a "It's not like..." kind of nuance to the rest of the sentence. When it's attached to a negative predicate, it works the same way as "It's not like..." I guess you could say that your example is ok because いいんだ is pretty much the same as "問題ない," which is negative. Or maybe you could say the speaker omitted a negative part, e.g., 別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ = 別に（プロでもなんでもなくて）こっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ (It's not like we pretend we're professional musicians or anything. You just say you play the drums in our high school band. So everything is ok.).
Either way, it's common to use 別に in a positive sentence when the speaker gives kind of a reason why he doesn't agree like in your example.
If in doubt, ignore 別に and think the speaker is shrugging when he says the rest of the sentence or replace 別に with "Huh?" e.g., "*Shrug* That's not a problem at all. We only pretend to be an amateur high school band." I think this works in most cases.
FooSoft Wrote:春原の呼び掛けに鞄を手にして立ち上がる。立ち上がる in this sentence is a reaction to something, and the に here is a marker indicating what the person reacted to. If it's difficult to get the meaning, insert 対して after the に or reword it as 呼び掛けられたので. This kind of に can cause ambiguity. But when it's used effectively, your sentence sounds more elegant than wordy alternatives.
What's the usage of the first に here? Is it purpose, because Sunohara called out?
FooSoft Wrote:ダメだ…会話が平行してて時間の無駄にしかならない…。When a discussion goes 平行, it means the talk gets nowhere because at least one person in the discussion is basing his argument on totally different facts/anecdotes, has totally different opinions/beliefs, doesn't listen to others in the first place, etc. You often see this in a flamewar in a thread about religion and politics.
Does this mean something like "No good, the discussion is happening in parallel, it's all going to be moot"?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-19
Thanks for the awesome and detailed explanation, magamo. It really helps
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-19
magamo Wrote:It seems some Japanese teachers think 別に usually appears in negative predicates so the usage in your sentence is unusual.I never claim to know everything.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-19
yudantaiteki Wrote:We all know that no one can claim that. Even professional writers who speak Japanese as their native language don't know all the prescriptive grammar either. But I was rather surprised when I found out that pretty much every source I checked only mentions the 別に〜ない structure.magamo Wrote:It seems some Japanese teachers think 別に usually appears in negative predicates so the usage in your sentence is unusual.I never claim to know everything.
If you google for "別に Japanese negative" (without quote), you'll find grammar notes that say it's usually followed by a negative form and indicates that something is not particularly the case. It seems J-J dictionaries often have similar usage notes too. You also said pretty much the same thing. But if you don't know frequent sentence structures such as 別にXなんだからいいだろ, you'll have trouble understanding material for native speakers.
I'm sorry if my previous post sounded like I was only referring to you. I must admit that I was surprised when an experienced teacher who has an excellent command of Japanese such as yourself didn't get the frequent grammar point. But I didn't have any bad intention. It doesn't seem like many teachers/learning materials mention 別に in a positive predicate when it's also a common usage, and this is rather surprising given the frequency of the grammar point.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-20
In sentences like:
校門の壁にもたれかかり、両手で鞄を持ちながらジッと地面を見つめている。
Is the v-masu stem just used in for もたれかかる instead of て form just because this is casual speech? Or is this something different? I haven't seen this explained in my grammar books / and guides, but it looks to me like that's what looks like is going on. Is this correct?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-20
Rather, it's used because it isn't casual speech. て is often omitted in writing.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-20
Just to clarify, rather than て being omitted, the masu-stem is substituted (the て form of かかる in modern Japanese is かかって, not かかりて).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-20
Thanks guys, one less thing now to nag me during SRS :p
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-20
@yudantaiteki
I suppose, but I always think of て form as (for example) かかりて minus り plus っ, instead of direct to かかって. Eliminating the onbin environment (〜て) eliminates the onbin(り→っ), so it's really the same thing imo.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tobberoth - 2010-04-20
Jarvik7 Wrote:@yudantaitekiYeah, but are there any grounds to think that this is (or was originally) a shortened -te form and not a nominalization by using the -masu stem?
I suppose, but I always think of て form as (for example) かかりて minus り plus っ, instead of direct to かかって. Eliminating the onbin environment (〜て) eliminates the onbin(り→っ), so it's really the same thing imo.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-20
Tobberoth Wrote:It's not very easy to know if a specific word has actually developed the same way the majority of the same kind has. But it seems かかって is following the 促音便 (soku-onbin) rule like others. So, unless it's a tricky exception, I think it's the usual soku-onbin of かかりて. In fact, 校門の壁にもたれかかり、両手で鞄を持ちながら and 校門の壁にもたれかかって、両手で鞄を持ちながら mean pretty much the same thing. The biggest difference is that the former wording appears in written language more frequently than in spoken language while the latter is neutral in that regard.Jarvik7 Wrote:@yudantaitekiYeah, but are there any grounds to think that this is (or was originally) a shortened -te form and not a nominalization by using the -masu stem?
I suppose, but I always think of て form as (for example) かかりて minus り plus っ, instead of direct to かかって. Eliminating the onbin environment (〜て) eliminates the onbin(り→っ), so it's really the same thing imo.
That said, yudantaiteki's explanation is straightforward and much easier because it doesn't require any complicated grammar rule of modern Japanese or knowledge of classical Japanese. Besides, etymology and stuff doesn't matter unless you're into linguistic aspects of the Japanese language.
So, whatever the grammar behind it, it's just describing the situation where Ryou is leaning against the school gate, holding her bag with both hands, and staring at the ground at the same time.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-21
If you guys aren't tired of my questions yet...
「俺なんかよりずっと前に教室を出ていっただろう」
"You left the classroom a while before I did."
What's the usage of なんか here? Is it to soften (I am not yet familiar with this usage, although maybe it works? ... one of the entries in rikaichan), or is it to make the sentence more like "You left the classroom before *people like me* did"?
「パン売場の前は、相変わらず商品台に近づくだけでも困難なほどの混みよう。」
This sentence kind of bothers me because I can't figure out how だけ is used. Does it mean that:
* the speaker is just theorizing about the fact that the table is too crowded to approach but hasn't actually done anything yet
...or...
* the speaker just approached/is approaching the table and notices that it's already really crowded
Can you say for sure it's one way or the other? Or am I reading too much into this?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-04-21
magamo Wrote:In fact, 校門の壁にもたれかかり、両手で鞄を持ちながら and 校門の壁にもたれかかって、両手で鞄を持ちながら mean pretty much the same thing.Magamo, can you provide us an example where 中止形 and 連用形+て have different meanings, or where only one of them is grammatically acceptable? They're not always interchangeable, are they?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-04-21
FooSoft Wrote:What's the usage of なんか here?People like me. And ずっと前 = "long before"; not just "a while before".
Quote:I can't figure out how だけ is used.考えただけでも恐ろしい。
It scares me just to think of it.
商品台に近づくだけでも困難
Difficult to even get close to the counter.
And, by the way, 混みよう = crowd; not some verb in volitional form.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-21
iSoron Wrote:Technically 中止形 is one of the various usages of 連用形 and called 連用中止 in Japanese grammar, i.e., one specific use of the 連用 grammar is called 中止形 in textbooks for learners of Japanese as a foreign language. So when the 連用 form of a verb or similar word is used in a different way, generally it's not interchangeable. For example, "宿題を手伝って" could be interpreted multiple ways:magamo Wrote:In fact, 校門の壁にもたれかかり、両手で鞄を持ちながら and 校門の壁にもたれかかって、両手で鞄を持ちながら mean pretty much the same thing.Magamo, can you provide us an example where 中止形 and 連用形+て have different meanings, or where only one of them is grammatically acceptable? They're not always interchangeable, are they?
A: 何すればいい？ (What can I do for you?)
B: 俺の宿題手伝って... (Help me with homework...)
(3 hours later)
C: 今までどこいってたの？ 探したじゃない。(Where have you been? I've been looking for you everywhere.)
A: Bの宿題手伝って... (I was helping B with his homework, and...)
The first 宿題を手伝って is actually 宿題を手伝って(下さい) so it's simply 手伝う in て-form. This usage doesn't have a meaning similar to 中止形.
The second one is similar to 中止形 in meaning. The speaker ended his sentence before saying the next action, i.e., in A's mind the sentence is something like "Bの宿題手伝って、Bと遊んで、それから一人で買い物して、歩いて帰ってきた," but A didn't want to say the rest of the sentence. You can use 中止形 without changing its overall meaning much so it reads, for example, "Bの宿題を手伝い、Bと遊び、それから一人で買い物をして、歩いて帰ってきた." I added を because it sounds better in this 中止形 sentence.
Now if you look at the 中止形 version of the sentence in A's mind closely, it has two 中止形 (手伝い and 遊び) and one 連用形+て having a 中止形-ish meaning (して in 買い物をして). So if 中止形 and 中止形-ish 連用形+て were interchangeable, all 8 possible sentences would mean exactly the same thing:
宿題を手伝い、Bと遊び、一人で買い物をし、帰ってきた (中止形, 中止形, 中止形)
宿題を手伝い、Bと遊び、一人で買い物をして、帰ってきた (中止形, 中止形, 連用形+て)
.
.
.
宿題を手伝って、Bと遊んで、一人で買い物をし、帰ってきた (連用形+て, 連用形+て, 中止形)
宿題を手伝って、Bと遊んで、一人で買い物をして、帰ってきた (連用形+て, 連用形+て, 連用形+て)
Certainly all these patterns make sense. But each version has a slightly different nuance even if you ignore the written vs. spoken difference. The difference is subtle, and this kind of thing also depends on rhythm, context, and so on.
The subtle difference in nuance between 中止形 and 中止形-ish 連用形+て is that 連用形+て often implies that the two connected actions are related to each other while 中止形 is neutral in many cases. For instance, AしてBした can imply that action A is the means to accomplish action B, that action A is what enabled the speaker to do action B, and so on.
Here is a good example I found on the internet (See this post in Japanese if you're interested):
1. 電車に乗って、東京へ行き、コンサートを見てきた。
2. 電車に乗って、東京へ行って、コンサートを見てきた。
3. 電車に乗り、東京へ行って、コンサートを見てきた。
4. 電車に乗り、東京へ行き、コンサートを見てきた。
(I went to Tokyo by train and went to the concert.)
Because taking a train is the way to go to Tokyo, 電車に乗って is better in most cases. But going to Tokyo and going to the concert may or may not be closely related to each other in the speaker's mind. So 1 and 2 are both ok, though 2 sounds a little childish and could sound like you just connected your thoughts as you speak. 4 sounds like the speaker sees each action separately, so it's like a robot observing a human's action without understanding why and how each action was taken. 3 would work best if you went to Tokyo to go to the concert but taking the train is an unrelated action. (So the translation I gave may not be accurate in this case.) But it requires an unusual context, and most likely it's a bad writing style. Then again, some native speakers do use 3 when they mean 1.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-04-22
magamo Wrote:The subtle difference in nuance between 中止形 and 中止形-ish 連用形+て is that 連用形+て often implies that the two connected actions are related to each other while 中止形 is neutral in many cases. For instance, AしてBした can imply that action A is the means to accomplish action B, that action A is what enabled the speaker to do action B, and so on.Many thanks, magamo!
So, if I understand correctly:
天井が高く、部屋の中は広く感じる。
Does not assert any relationship between the clauses.
天井が高くて部屋の中は広く感じる。
Asserts that the room looking spacious follows from, or has to do with, the ceiling being high.
That's not subtle at all, from a logicians point of view.
One last question about this, if you don't mind. I've read somewhere that て comes from つ, a particle once used to indicate completion, so if you join a sequence of events with 連用形+て, you're saying they happened one after the other, while if you join them with 中止形, you're not. (they may have happened in parallel). Is this true? Example:
俺も前を向き、他の連中も前を向く。
I turn forward and the others turn forward.
(possibly at the same time)
俺も前を向いて、他の連中も前を向く。
I turn forward and *then* the others turn forward.
(the others turn forward possibly exactly because I turned forward)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2010-04-22
立体的狂気
Rikai/edict says 立体的 means "3D" basically, but the example sentence in Tanaka corpus says its "Stereotype Madness." So is 立体的 the way you say "Stereotypical <something>" in Japanese. ie: 立体的JPOP, 立体的アニメ and such.
Thanks as always
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-22
iSoron Wrote:I think this difference falls somewhere between grammar and style. There is a difference, and it wouldn't be subtle if it were logical like math. But unfortunately it's not black and white. It's just one version gives an impression that two clauses are related more closely in some way than the other.magamo Wrote:The subtle difference in nuance between 中止形 and 中止形-ish 連用形+て is that 連用形+て often implies that the two connected actions are related to each other while 中止形 is neutral in many cases. For instance, AしてBした can imply that action A is the means to accomplish action B, that action A is what enabled the speaker to do action B, and so on.Many thanks, magamo!
So, if I understand correctly:
天井が高く、部屋の中は広く感じる。
Does not assert any relationship between the clauses.
天井が高くて部屋の中は広く感じる。
Asserts that the room looking spacious follows from, or has to do with, the ceiling being high.
That's not subtle at all, from a logicians point of view.
Without any other context clue, the second one sounds like the room looks larger than it actually is because of the high ceiling, though the two facts could have no relation in an unusual context. The first sentence doesn't explicitly say it's the ceiling that makes it look bigger. But people would most likely take it as a reason because it's common sense.
Both versions can mean the same thing, but the first sentence gives an impression that there is a weaker relation between the two clauses than the second sentence. It's ambiguous exactly what kind of relation the speaker had in his mind, but in your example common sense tells us that it's most likely that the first clause is the reason why the second clause is true. Also, it's not very clear how weakly the two clauses are connected to each other. Similarly, the connotation of the second version isn't crystal clear in this sense.
The point is that grammar doesn't dictate that either version implies absolutely no relation or a super strong relation. It doesn't specify the kind of relation between each clause either. A dishonest person might exploit this and mislead listeners; technically he can say he didn't explicitly mention the relation listener thought he implied when he used 連用形+て and vice versa.
iSoron Wrote:One last question about this, if you don't mind. I've read somewhere that て comes from つ, a particle once used to indicate completion, so if you join a sequence of events with 連用形+て, you're saying they happened one after the other, while if you join them with 中止形, you're not. (they may have happened in parallel). Is this true? Example:If the implied relation is order of a sequence of events, the latter means that the speaker turns forward, and then others follow you. The first clause can be the reason why others turn forward like the speaker. The speaker might be thinking of a totally different relation too. Also, he might have chosen 連用形+て because of informality.
俺も前を向き、他の連中も前を向く。
I turn forward and the others turn forward.
(possibly at the same time)
俺も前を向いて、他の連中も前を向く。
I turn forward and *then* the others turn forward.
(the others turn forward possibly exactly because I turned forward)
Whatever the grammatical/etymological reason, order of events is one of the most frequent kinds of relations implied by 連用形+て when it's used to connect action verbs. In fact, if you say Aをして、Bをして、Cをした, it usually means someone did them in that particular order. It'd be better to use explicit words to indicate order of events if they don't follow the order in your sentence, e.g., Aをして、でもそのまえにBをして、最後にCをした (You did B first, then A, and finally C.). A very ambiguous example is Aをして、Bをして、あ、Cもした. The interjection あ between Bをして and Cもした implies the speaker almost forgot to mention action C, and the も after C makes it sound like the information in the final clause is parallel to the other part in a way. So if you accidentally say something like that when order of the sequence of events is important, you might want to clarify the order in the following sentence.
vix86 Wrote:立体的狂気I've never heard 立体的 used that way. Possibly it's used as a technical term in some field to mean "stereotypical," but I kind of think it's just a bad translation.
Rikai/edict says 立体的 means "3D" basically, but the example sentence in Tanaka corpus says its "Stereotype Madness." So is 立体的 the way you say "Stereotypical <something>" in Japanese. ie: 立体的JPOP, 立体的アニメ and such.
Edit: I checked machine translators like google and goo. Some English-Chinese translations say that "stereo" as in stereo audio is 立体声. Apparently "stereotype" has quite different Chinese characters, so it seems the translation in the corpus is a straightforward translation error, i.e., maybe the translator simply connected 立体 and 的 because the original English word was "stereotyped = stereo + type."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2010-04-23
@magamo: Thanks, that makes sense I guess. There for a moment I though I had finally found a word for "Stereotypical" in Japanese
. I've asked Japanese about it before and they say "Use みたいな." Oh well.Thanks
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-04-23
@magamo Thanks again.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-04-24
Can anyone give me an example sentence containing "なんか"?
I know it expressions like, "なんかつまらないなー" but I'm not really sure what it means.
It's something like, "kind of", right? Or am I wrong?
宜しくお願いします！
m（＾＿＿＾）m
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - EnjukuBlack - 2010-04-24
gyuujuice Wrote:Can anyone give me an example sentence containing "なんか"?Think of English sentences like "Man, I got home really late." or "I was, like, really surprised."
I know it expressions like, "なんかつまらないなー" but I'm not really sure what it means.
It's something like, "kind of", right? Or am I wrong?
宜しくお願いします！
m（＾＿＿＾）m
What do the 'man' and 'like' in those sentences really mean? 'A male human' and 'to feel attraction to'?
No, they're just filler words that add spice to a conversational utterance. なんか can often be used in that way. Although it literally means 'something,' it can be used as an empty 'filler' word.
なんかお腹空いてしもたわ。
Man, I'm really hungry.
なんか、違う方法ないの？
Isn't there, like, some other way?
Proper usage of なんか in this sense, I think, just comes from hearing it used in various contexts over and over until it becomes natural. In the same way as 'man' or 'like,' it's a casual, informal thing that probably doesn't adhere to standard grammatical rules.