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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-11

Thanks pm215, thinking of adverbs modifying the predicate (kind of like Xで, I suppose) makes sense to me. Although in your example きっと might be modifying 日本人 just by being a noun (listed as adverb/noun in 電子辞書, but same difference I guess).

But yeah in ようには sentence, if it were contrastive, wouldn't you just use plain よう in it's な adjective / non adverbial form?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-04-12

FooSoft Wrote:Thanks pm215, thinking of adverbs modifying the predicate (kind of like Xで, I suppose) makes sense to me. Although in your example きっと might be modifying 日本人 just by being a noun (listed as adverb/noun in 電子辞書, but same difference I guess).
Hmm. 大辞泉 just marks it as (副). I don't know what a noun usage of it would look like, but I don't think that's one (although I can't quite articulate why I think that).
Quote:But yeah in ようには sentence, if it were contrastive, wouldn't you just use plain よう in it's な adjective / non adverbial form?
Not really sure what you have in mind here...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-12

It sounds like maybe you don't really understand the contrastive use of は yet; you might want to look into that in a grammar book. Putting は after に to make contrast is very common (it can be put after almost any particle to do this), and if you're locked into the idea of は as exclusively a "topic" marker, it's going to make those uses hard to understand.

Quote:But yeah in ようには sentence, if it were contrastive, wouldn't you just use plain よう in it's な adjective / non adverbial form?
That would just be marking よう for contrast, not ように.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Asakk - 2010-04-12

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Asakk Wrote:May someone help me? What does this mean exactly?? :
妖しくもきらびやかな世界観は多くの人々を酔わせ、熱狂
させてきた。
It's just to make sure I understand, thank you in advance
You've posted this twice without response; providing context and your own attempt at translation would encourage responses, I think.
Sorry, I'll make sure to add context next time. Smile
I have another doubt, I'm reading the news in Yahoo, more specifically this one:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20100413-00000211-yom-soci
I guess I understand everything, it says about a name called Kamiyama (is that how I should read 神山 as a name?) who stabbed two police officers. But in the last paragraph it says this: "捜査関係者によると、佐世保市内では、昨年末から３月にかけて、事務所荒らしなど約１０件の窃盗事件が発生。捜査段階で神山容疑者が浮上していた。". I think it's basically saying that according to the guys leading the investigation, from the end of 2009 until march of this year there have been 10 cases involving disturbances and theft of offices. But I don't understand the last phrase, what does 浮上 means here? Does it mean that the investigation concluded Kamiyama was involved in those?
Thank you for your help.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-12

yudantaiteki Wrote:It sounds like maybe you don't really understand the contrastive use of は yet; you might want to look into that in a grammar book. Putting は after に to make contrast is very common (it can be put after almost any particle to do this), and if you're locked into the idea of は as exclusively a "topic" marker, it's going to make those uses hard to understand.

Quote:But yeah in ようには sentence, if it were contrastive, wouldn't you just use plain よう in it's な adjective / non adverbial form?
That would just be marking よう for contrast, not ように.
Just looked it up, makes sense now. I actually remember reading about it, but I used to think that you would always have は showing up at least twice. Guess I know better now Wink

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-13

Oh! Another question, I think I'm on a roll of knowledge acquisition or something, thanks for helping me out Smile So I'm trying to figure out what the function of the first に is in the following sentence:

「俺は呼び続ける声にうんざりして、コタツに潜り込もうかと思う。」

And I can't really find anything that fits very well in my grammar books. I think the closest thing I found was a variation on には, or basically kind of "for the purpose of/sake of" kind of meaning, which has related usages where it's just に...

So something like (literally):

"I'm fed up with the continuously calling voice, I think I will hide myself under the kotatsu."

It feels like a stretch though, and maybe I'm filling in the gaps incorrectly because I kind of understand what this sentence is supposed to mean, without really getting the usage of に here.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tobberoth - 2010-04-13

Some verbs simply use に instead of を to show the object of the predicate. うんざりする is one of those.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-13

Tobberoth Wrote:Some verbs simply use に instead of を to show the object of the predicate. うんざりする is one of those.
Ahhhh, of course. I have no idea why I didn't think it was one of those thanks.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-04-14

「等」の使い方を教えていただきませんか？

I think you just stick it right after a list of items you are taling about but I'm not sure... if I use 「等」can I use a particle after it?

自分で作って例文：

動物が好きですよ。例えば、猫や犬や子豚等好きです。
I do too like animals. For example, I like cats, dogs, piglets, ect.

タバコを吸う人と食べ過ぎる人等はあまり健康じゃないかもしれませんか？
People sho smoke or eat too much ect. are unhealthy, right?

I think the reason I don't quite understand this may be that I don't even know how to use it properly in written English.

宜しくお願いします！

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sheetz - 2010-04-14

What does フルボッコ mean? It seems like it means "beaten up," but I want to make sure.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-14

sheetz Wrote:What does フルボッコ mean? It seems like it means "beaten up," but I want to make sure.
It meants "totally dominated" or the like; given the contexts in which I usually see it in, "pwn" would not be half-bad as a translation.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-04-14

gyuujuice Wrote:「等」の使い方を教えていただきませんか？

I think you just stick it right after a list of items you are taling about but I'm not sure... if I use 「等」can I use a particle after it?
Yes. DBJG says that particles usually follow など (although it gives an example of など after the particle and says this might give a more derogatory meaning depending on context). Note also that some uses don't require a following particle, and the list may have only one element (from the DBJG, an example of both: 経済学など専攻するつもりはない). Also, it's usually written in kana.
Quote:動物が好きですよ。例えば、猫や犬や子豚等好きです。
I do too like animals. For example, I like cats, dogs, piglets, ect.
I'd put が after など here. Also it's "etc" (short for 'etcetera') :-)
Quote:タバコを吸う人と食べ過ぎる人等はあまり健康じゃないかもしれませんか？
People sho smoke or eat too much ect. are unhealthy, right?
This one doesn't work for me because the "exhaustive list" nature of と doesn't work with the "and some other stuff" meaning of など.
Quote:I think the reason I don't quite understand this may be that I don't even know how to use it properly in written English.
など is one of those things which doesn't really have a good natural direct translation into English. "etc" (at least for me) is in a sort of weird "only in written text and only in semi-formal but not actually formal writing" register. "and so on" sometimes works, or "things like X or Y". So I wouldn't worry about English usage; concentrate on the Japanese.

Tom Gally has an interesting note on など.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-15

Couple of things bothering me that maybe someone could check for me:

俺は、そんなことを気にするような人間でもなかったはずだ。
親友なんて呼べるほどの間柄でもないじゃないか。
In sentences like this, でも is being used as a double particle of で and も, right? So it translates to "things like"?

教室は女子の姿が消え、男子の更衣室と化していた
Is と being used here as some sort of weird quotation, or or is it saying the "the girls vanished AND the classroom turned into the boys changing room". Or something else entirely? :p

強く否定はしないわ
Finally, this means "I don't strongly disagree" right (and not the other way around). I've seen this translated "I strongly disagree" but that seems wrong.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2010-04-15

Some of the students in a school I work at described someone who just walked out of sight as what sounded like あしだけうま, which I took as 足だけ馬, or a 'just-legs horse.' The laughed when they said it. There are hits for it on google, but I can't figure out what it means. Anyone know? Or did I hear wrong?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-04-15

FooSoft Wrote:俺は、そんなことを気にするような人間でもなかったはずだ。
親友なんて呼べるほどの間柄でもないじゃないか。
In sentences like this, でも is being used as a double particle of で and も, right? So it translates to "things like"?
If there were such easy rules for translation, automatic translators would not suck that much, don't you think? Smile

Quote:教室は女子の姿が消え、男子の更衣室と化していた
Is と being used here as some sort of weird quotation, or or is it saying the "the girls vanished AND the classroom turned into the boys changing room". Or something else entirely? :p
That's just how 化する is used. 「更衣室と化する」→ "To turn into a changing room"
"The girls vanished and the classroom turned into the boys changing room".

Quote:強く否定はしないわ
I will not strongly deny it.

Quote:I've seen this translated "I strongly disagree" but that seems wrong.
It's wrong.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-04-15

pm215,

"Yes. DBJG says that particles usually follow など Note also that some uses don't require a following particle, and the list may have only one element... Also, it's usually written in kana."

I hate that after I have learned a kanji I can't use it in some of the most commonly used words. 御、願、為、之、乃 etc. Thanks for the heads up!

...sort of weird "only in written text and only in semi-formal but not actually formal writing" register. "and so on" sometimes works, or "things like X or Y". So I wouldn't worry about English usage; concentrate on the Japanese.

Oh, so it is mainly in written Japanese.

教えてくれてありがとうございました。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-15

願 doesn't belong on that list.

I see お願いします more than I see おねがいします.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-04-15

gyuujuice Wrote:I hate that after I have learned a kanji I can't use it in some of the most commonly used words. 御、願、為、之、乃 etc. Thanks for the heads up!
EDICT (and thus rikaichan) mark works "uk" for "usually kana". The other good rule of thumb is "don't use kanji for 'grammar' words/particles".

Quote:...sort of weird "only in written text and only in semi-formal but not actually formal writing" register. "and so on" sometimes works, or "things like X or Y". So I wouldn't worry about English usage; concentrate on the Japanese.

Oh, so it is mainly in written Japanese.
No, I said that "etc" is mostly used in written English. I didn't make any statement about whether など is mainly written Japanese (as it happens I don't think it is).

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-04-15

Jarvik7さん、
ええ？日本人に「そうにあまり書かない」と言われました。＾＿＾；

pm125さん、
"uk"　なるほど。

”No, I said that "etc" is mostly used in written English. I didn't make any statement about whether など is mainly written Japanese (as it happens I don't think it is).”
あっ！すみません。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zarxrax - 2010-04-15

Could someone tell me how to write some basic mathematical phrases, such as these:

One plus one equals two.
One minus 10 equals negative nine.
One times one equals one.
One divided by two equals zero point five (0.5)

Also, how do you read fractions, such as four fifths (4/5)?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-04-15

Zarxrax, I can only help with a few of them:

1+1=2
1と2を足すと、2になる。

0.5 = 0点5　You just say れい／ゼロ 点, which means point/dot, and the other numbers


1.60 =いち　てん　ろくじゅう　

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-04-15

Zarxrax Wrote:One plus one equals two.
One minus 10 equals negative nine.
One times one equals one.
One divided by two equals zero point five (0.5)

Also, how do you read fractions, such as four fifths (4/5)?
In general, math phrases are tricky because pronunciations can vary depending on context and surrounding sentences. For example, "Because x = 2 and y = x+1, we have y = 3." is

Teacher in math class:
x = 2 かつ y = x+1 なので、y = 3 です。
（えっくす　いこーる　に　かつ　わい いこーる　えっくす　ぷらす　いち　なので、わい　いこーる　さん　です）
But いこーる can be は, so, for example, "y = 3" reads わいはさんです if you see it as a sentence rather than an equation.

Argument in a math proof:
x = 2 かつ y = x+1 なので、y = 3である。
（えっくす　いこーる　に　かつ　わい いこーる　えっくす　ぷらす　いち　なので、わい　いこーる　さん　である）
You never pronounce "=" は (wa) here. If you're going to use the result "y =3" to argue further in the same proof, となる is slightly better than である, though it's a matter of preference.

In an informal situation like explaining the answer to your friend, it can be:
xが2でyがx+1だからyは3
(えっくす　が　に　で　わい　が　えっくす　ぷらす　いち　だから　わい　は　さん)

The point is that if you see a math phrase as a sentence, you can apply Japanese grammar the way you do in normal speech so you can use は/が instead of いこーる. If you see it as an (in)equation, formula, and the like, you use math terms such as いこーる.

The examples you gave are usually taught before kids learn the mathematical concept "equal," so in normal context they are most likely:

One plus one equals two: 1足す1は2（いち　たす　いち　は　に）
One minus 10 equals negative nine: 1引く10は-9（いち　ひく　じゅう　は　まいなす　きゅう）
One times one equals one: 1掛ける1は1（いち　かける　いち　は　いち）
One divided by two equals zero point five: 1割る2は0.5（いち　わる　に　は　れい　てん　ご）.

Note that は as "=" is actually pronounced わ, i.e., it's the same as the は as a particle.

A faction x/y is read y分のx (わい　ぶん　の　えっくす). If you replace the denominator and the numerator with numbers, you pronounce the numbers as they are, i.e., it's more like the "x over y" type of reading in the opposite order in a sense. So 4/5 is ごぶんのよん, and a half is にぶんのいち because it's 1/2. If the fraction is in a non-math text, you can use kanji for the number part, e.g., 五分の四.

As for 1.60, if you mean the number pronounced "won point six oh," which is slightly larger than 3/2, it's いってんろくぜろ or いってんろくれい.

Edit: Replaced "=" with ":" when it's not part of a math phrase to avoid confusion.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zarxrax - 2010-04-15

Wow, lots to take in there, but very informative! Thanks!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-04-18

I'm back with a couple new questions! Smile

別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ
Does this mean "Apart from that, I'm a beginner so it's OK"? I'm confused if it means that or "I'm not really a biginner, so It's OK".

春原の呼び掛けに鞄を手にして立ち上がる。
What's the usage of the first に here? Is it purpose, because Sunohara called out?

ダメだ…会話が平行してて時間の無駄にしかならない…。
Does this mean something like "No good, the discussion is happening in parallel, it's all going to be moot"?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-18

FooSoft Wrote:I'm back with a couple new questions! Smile

別にこっちは素人なんだからいいんだよ
Does this mean "Apart from that, I'm a beginner so it's OK"? I'm confused if it means that or "I'm not really a biginner, so It's OK".
That seems like a strange sentence; are you sure you typed it in correctly? 別に often goes with negative predicates, not positive ones.