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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-03-14
Jarvik7 Wrote:Just something quick @ magamo:酒屋 is a liquor shop, and a bar is 酒場. Etymologically 居酒屋 was a alcohol dealer/shop that also sold cheep sake to individuals to drink there. So it meant a liquor shop where you could use it as a tiny makeshift bar. But the old meaning is lost, and the current meaning is bar, pub, etc. and is close to 酒場. So the 居+(酒+屋) thing is sort of true for the older sense, though it was a kind of 酒屋, not a bar.
I've always thought of 居酒屋 as falling into the same category as 本屋. It's just a 酒屋 where you stay (居) to consume your drink instead of carrying it home. That makes it 居+(酒+屋). I have heard 居酒屋さん before, and there are half a million matches on Google for it...
There are other words that have the 〜屋 form such as 八百屋 (やおや where やお doesn't make sense). It seems ~屋 words tend to allow さん as a speaker gets attached to the shops/services. For example, pretty much every native speaker would say 八百屋さん is ok, but I think 居酒屋さん is less acceptable unless you're using さん as mommy talk or trying to make it sound softer. The mommy talk kind of さん can be used for various kinds of things such as animals (e.g., ねこさん), but I guess it's not the point here.
As for google results, I guess it would give much fewer results if you exclude examples like 居酒屋さん吉 (a bar whose name is さん吉), mommy talk, blog posts by alcoholics, bars' adds trying to sound friendly. Also, some dialects including the Kansai dialect accept さん and equivalent honorifics like はん for a wider range of nouns, though I'm not sure if it's linguistically the same as 本屋さん, 車屋さん, etc.
That said, if I were living very close to a 居酒屋 and thought of it as a member of the local community, I might use 居酒屋さん the same way as 八百屋さん because it has 屋 at the end. Also, I might abuse the 屋さん grammar when talking about 居酒屋 to sound it softer/friendlier/homier/whatever. But other native speakers might not think it's abuse.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Whatsifsowhatsit - 2010-03-14
Sorry Smackle, didn't see your reply before - thanks.
And also, thanks very much to kame3, yudantaiteki, Aijin, Jarvik7 and especially magamo, I read all you said and it was very interesting. Very kind of you to help that much
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ruiner - 2010-03-14
magamo's posts often make me excited to think about how much more I have to learn.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Whatsifsowhatsit - 2010-03-14
Right, I felt that way too
I guess I have another question, though I think this one won't require as large a reply as my last one... still working on the same story, I came across this:
「あののイ、小母（おば）さん」
What could those first four characters stand for? It sounds like some kind of general opening, like in English "say," or "so,"... is it that? And if so, what would be the closest equivalent in English? That is, is it polite, impolite, casual, formal..? (Sounds casual and not necessarily very polite when I hear the narrator say it, but I could be wrong)
Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-03-14
Whatsifsowhatsit Wrote:I guess I have another question, though I think this one won't require as large a reply as my last one... still working on the same story, I came across this:Probably it's an older pronunciation in some dialect, and I think it's just あのぉ, あのー or something along those lines. I could be wrong though. Either way, 新美南吉's work has some obsolete Japanese. Modern English equivalents are "Hi," "Excuse me," etc.
「あののイ、小母（おば）さん」
What could those first four characters stand for? It sounds like some kind of general opening, like in English "say," or "so,"... is it that? And if so, what would be the closest equivalent in English? That is, is it polite, impolite, casual, formal..? (Sounds casual and not necessarily very polite when I hear the narrator say it, but I could be wrong)
Thanks!
If you like 新美南吉's work, I recommend ごん狐 and 手袋を買いに too. As I said in an earlier post, the former is a bawww kind of story. The latter is one of the most famous short stories by him. It's also about foxes and was in my textbook of Japanese class at elementary school.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Whatsifsowhatsit - 2010-03-14
Thanks magamo, I guess I thought it was something like that
To be honest I'm not too sure what stories I like yet, 狐 is only the first one that I'm really reading/studying after finishing (mostly) Tae Kim. I'll keep your recommendations in mind though.
Sorry for being so inept, but I've already run into another problem. 「義則君が口をとがらして下駄屋の小母さんにいいました。」 I'm afraid I don't understand 「口をとがらして」. It's a bit startling how often I can't figure things out from using whatever knowledge I already have and Rikaichan... the problem, I suppose, is that I don't know which kana to group together as words. Anyway, I couldn't figure this one out either
if anyone could help, that'd be great.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-03-14
My dictionary has "pout" for 口をとがらす.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-03-14
Usually it's a pout expressing annoyance. It doesn't mean a sexually attractive pout in normal context.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Whatsifsowhatsit - 2010-03-14
I see
I wish they had used that word in the English translation... it seems that's really not a very literal translation, unfortunately.Thanks again, yudantaiteki and magamo, for your help.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2010-03-15
In the thread on the other forum concerning novels, they mentioned あたし彼女 and I started reading it. My question is on ーさ in like 出会ってさ. Every now and then I hear it used in colloquial speech by girls. EDICT says beyond meaning "-ness" its a sentence final thats used for assertiveness. I'm wondering if anyone knows if it's use has gotten more slang? One time I heard it on a train it was repeated after every word kind of like 「何々さ～、何々さ～」 I can't recall exactly what they said but the girl that said it about 4-5 times and she wasn't trying to make a point, more the counter, she sounded exhausted and was listing stuff. Any ideas? Is さ the new な？
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tobberoth - 2010-03-15
It's slang and used a buttload in Tokyo and many other places. Guys can use it as well, though it's mostly girls who use it so much it becomes annoying. And yeah, it can be put after almost anything, just like "like" in English.
それでさー、仕事でさー、急に部長が来てさー。
And then like, at work right?, My boss just like, came over.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-03-15
皆さん、こんにちは！今日は動詞の文法を復習していましたが、オンラインで分からないところの説明を探せません！
英語で、「I finally finished eating all the vegetables.」は何と書きますか？
「やっと野菜を食べ終わりました！」←それはどうですか？
それから、「動詞+始める」は正しいですか？
例えば、完璧な玩具を探し始めました。←それは正しいのですか？
英語で、「雨が降り出した」の意味は「It (suddenly) began to rain」ですね。
ですから、「動詞＋だす」と「動詞+始める」の違いを教えてください。
別の例文を教えてくれてください。
宜しくお願いしゅます！
（追記：日本語で答えるのほうが英語で答えるより宜しいですが。。。）
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-03-16
gyuujuice Wrote:追記：日本語で答えるのほうが英語で答えるより宜しいですが。。。）I'll give a link to a 16 page explanation in Japanese later in this post. I'll just write in English what kind of thing the linked article has so everyone can understand what we're talking about here. If you want translation of my post into Japanese, please let me know. I'll post it in Japanese too.
gyuujuice Wrote:英語で、「I finally finished eating all the vegetables.」は何と書きますか？Perfect.
「やっと野菜を食べ終わりました！」←それはどうですか？
gyuujuice Wrote:それから、「動詞+始める」は正しいですか？The verb+出す/始める form is one of the more difficult grammar points to teach through traditional language teaching methods. In general, 始める can take various kinds of verbs in many forms while the cases where 出す can be attached are more restricted in a grammatical sense. In a sense, 始める is more versatile (Your example is all right too.). So a lazy explanation is that they're pretty much the same in meaning, but the 出す form is sort of an idiom so you should be more careful when you use verb+出す.
例えば、完璧な玩具を探し始めました。←それは正しいのですか？
英語で、「雨が降り出した」の意味は「It (suddenly) began to rain」ですね。
ですから、「動詞＋だす」と「動詞+始める」の違いを教えてください。
There are some research focusing on verb types, conjugations, etc. that allow/forbid 出す and 始める too. But probably the difference in nuance is much more important, I think.
Here's a good summary of current theories and popular explanations about 出す vs. 始める written in Japanese:
http://koara.lib.keio.ac.jp/xoonips/modules/xoonips/detail.php?koara_id=AN00296083-20090600-0001
This is a little informal 16 page academic article (actually a revised excerpt from a master thesis), so you might find it a little difficult to read through. But it sums up popular explanations well, explains the difference in nuance, and gives some counterexamples to the standard explanation you'd probably learn in Japanese class for foreigners. There are many example sentences too. The article doesn't give any new insight to the current linguistic theory, but I think it's more than enough to get a little informal overview. I don't think I can give a better explanation in Japanese than the article.
This is a famous grammar point learners often have trouble understanding, so I'm pretty sure there are at least a few websites/forums posts explaining the difference in Japanese and/or English somewhere on the internet. If the article is too advanced, it might be good to read popular explanations in Japanese or English first and then attack the paper.
gyuujuice Wrote:別の例文を教えてくれてください。Awww... Is this Japanese intentional?
宜しくお願いしゅます！
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - gyuujuice - 2010-03-16
マガモさん、
ありがとうございます！
丸で読んでいました。いい説明ですね。＾＾
現在質問がありません！
「別の例文を教えてくれてください。
宜しくお願いしゅます！
Awww... Is this Japanese intentional?」
Well I tried to be polite intentionally. I still fail though. 私はできるだけ丁寧に話してみますが、あまり敬語を使えません。
Anyways, awesome resource!
I will be mining it later. >
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-03-16
Your problem there is using both くれて and ください; くれて is a more casual version of ください that you can use with friends, but it sounds strange to mix them.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Hinode - 2010-03-17
I'm having trouble with the different versions of sunrise/dawn and which one to use in which context: 夜明け、暁、日の出, 日出
Could anyone tell me what different nuances these words convey?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2010-03-18
幼なじみ
When this is spoken, does the second な get spoken or does it get shortened to おさなじみ? Because it doesn't flow off the tongue real well in its written form.
Thanks.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-03-18
I think it's usually おさななじみ -- two な's in a row are not unusual in Japanese (七、斜め, any な-adj + a noun starting with な, etc.).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Lindley - 2010-03-18
Hi!
Can someone decipher this sentence, please? It's from manga. I may have broken up the words incorrectly... 今日 合kon (in katakana) だっつったじゃん。 何で 未だ 短いパン つかなんなの この 部屋? Thanks!
P.S. How do you usually deal with such sentences, where you don't know how to parse and translate it? Any useful online resources you'd recommend?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-03-18
You may have made some transcribing errors there; the sentence doesn't make all that much sense to me. If the first sentence is 今日、合コンだったじゃん then that means "There was a party today, wasn't there."
Perhaps the rest if 何でまだ短いパンツか。なんなの、この部屋？ But that doesn't make very much sense.
If you don't know how to parse something, the only real solution is to learn more Japanese. There aren't really many good resources for dealing with that kind of problem other than asking people.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mr_hans_moleman - 2010-03-18
今日 合kon (in katakana) だっつったじゃん。 何で 未だ 短いパン つかなんなの この 部屋? Thanks!
今日 合kon (in katakana) だっつったじゃん
There was a goukon today right?
何で 未だ 短いパン つか
Why are you still wearing short pants????
なんなの この 部屋?
What (the hell) is up with this room? (it's dirty, it smells etc.... )
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Lindley - 2010-03-20
Thanks for the explanations and translations! Guess I should buckle up and finish that DBJG....
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-03-20
Hello,
I'm back with some more questions.
Thanks a lot in advance for any help
上野動物園にはパンダをはじめ、子供たちに人気がある動物がたくさんいます。
Why is に used here after 子供たち?
Is "ni" always used for phrases that want to express something like "among .."?
その歌を歌うたび、幼い日のことを思い出す。
Is there a rule when you can drop the "ni" in "tabi ni"?
My grammar dic says that "ni" in this construction can never be dropped, but apparently it can. That confuses me!
参加者はそれほど多くはあるまい。
Why's the adverbial form of "多い" used here? Can't it just be "多い"?
ケーキは買うまいと思っても、見るとつい買ってしまう。
"～ても" usually means "even (if)", but here it seems to mean "even though". Wouldn't it be better to use "と思ったのに"?
ジョージが真相を知っているのではあるまいか。
This sentence is giving me headaches. The translation is something like: I have the feeling that George knows the truth. (according to my grammar dictionary)
あるまいか means will probably not, will he?
George knows the truth <- he probably doesn't, does he?
So how can it be turned into the opposite then? And why?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mr_hans_moleman - 2010-03-21
Chochajin- Honestly,your questions gives me a headache jkd. You really want to know grammar rules that bad? My suggestion is not to worry about this things because if you read enough this things will come naturally. I know you want answers now because that's how we are as humans. But, for now I think it's better to remember it as it is no questions asked. Well, if your aim is to study for a grammar test then that's a different story.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-03-21
chochajin Wrote:参加者はそれほど多くはあるまい。I think it has to be the adverbial form because it's modifying ある.
Why's the adverbial form of "多い" used here? Can't it just be "多い"?
Quote:ケーキは買うまいと思っても、見るとつい買ってしまう。Given that 買ってしまう is present tense, と思ったのに sounds weird to me. (also I think you could use 'even if' to translate that if you wanted.)
"～ても" usually means "even (if)", but here it seems to mean "even though". Wouldn't it be better to use "と思ったのに"?
Quote:ジョージが真相を知っているのではあるまいか。My grammar book defines ではあるまいか as:
This sentence is giving me headaches. The translation is something like: I have the feeling that George knows the truth. (according to my grammar dictionary)
あるまいか means will probably not, will he?
George knows the truth <- he probably doesn't, does he?
So how can it be turned into the opposite then? And why?
Quote:「...ではないだろうか」という意味。「Xではあるまいか」は、話し手が「たぶんXだ」と考えていることを表す推量の表現。