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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Hinode - 2010-02-21
Thanks Tobberoth and Magamo. It's really great that you take your time to point out the depth of grammatical minutiae!
Regarding my last sentence: "湖の水面に小さく波が立っているな。"
Magamo translated it as: "I can see ripples on the lake."
Is it the な in the end that indicates the "I can see" part? And if you used さざ波, you'd still use が立っている?
Thanks again!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-02-21
@magamo: Thanks a lot. Yes, that made sense. I have the feeling that I understood it a little bit better now. I guess I also need just more exposure from now on
More questions (；ﾞﾟ'ωﾟ') .....
～きる:
４２．１９５キロを走りきるのは大変なことだ。
To run 42.195km until the end is really tough.
そんなにたくさん食べきれますか。
Can you finish eating so much?
老人が、何か言いたげに近づいて来た。
The old man came closer as if he wanted to say something.
ジョンさんは、困りぬいて相談に来た。
John came to me because he's extremely troubled.?
大阪から神戸____地震がありました。
a) まで b) にかけて c) について d) に対して
Okay, so I chose a) which is wrong (b) is correct, BECAUSE the "Dictionary of Japanese grammar" taught me that only "made" can be used with specific time and place statements, so if you say "from 9am to 10pm" or "from Shibuya to Shinjuku" then you can't use "nikakete" - at least that's what's written in the book. Why is "made" wrong then??? *headache*
このカーテンは_______生地を使っています。
a) 燃えにくい b) 燃えがたい c) 燃えやすい d) 燃えがちな
Why can't it be b)? Why is it a)? Because one can't think that there's a curtain made of something that's impossible to burn? Is that why?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-21
Hinode Wrote:Regarding my last sentence: "湖の水面に小さく波が立っているな。"Before answering the question, I should point out that the original Japanese is, um, not the best example sentence. I don't think the number of hits on google is a reliable measure, but:
Magamo translated it as: "I can see ripples on the lake."
Is it the な in the end that indicates the "I can see" part? And if you used さざ波, you'd still use が立っている?
Google Wrote:1 - 10 of about 131,000 for "さざ波が立つ". (0.10 seconds)If you take a look at the results of 小さく波が立つ, there are only 10 distinct examples. I'm not saying the original sentence is grammatically wrong or anything. But you get the picture.
1 - 10 of about 419 for "小さく波が立つ". (0.08 seconds)
So you want to know if you can say 小さく波が立つ instead of さざ波が立つ, right? Well, I don't think it's the most idiomatic way. It does seem さざ波が立つ is more popular and sounds natural to the majority of Japanese speakers. Then again, it's not what your average native speaker would care about either. In fact, it's in your textbook as an example (probably) written by a native speaker...
As for the "I can see" part, the answer is kind of yes. I don't analyze a sentence or connect grammatically equivalent pieces to come up with a complete sentence in another language when I do J-E/E-J translation. But if you drop な, I'd less likely use "I can see," though the な-less version can also be the same "I can see" sentence depending on context. So in this sense the な at the end of the sentence has to do with the grammar point in my mind. But it doesn't mean there is a formula that says adding な = I can see.
When I translate a sentence taken out of context like your example, the first thing I do is come up with a realistic situation where a native speaker would say the sentence in question. And then I imagine the situation in the target language and hear what the person says in my head. My "translation" is the line that pops up in my mind.
The actual translation process is a little more complicated, but this is pretty much what I do. So, in the strictest sense, no grammatical component in the original sentence corresponds to any part of the translated sentence in my mind. That's why I find translation extremely difficult; I have to immerse myself into both languages to the extent that I can give a realistic dialogue, context, and so on in both languages. So ideally I should be able to come up with typical situations where native speakers would say/write a given sentence and its corresponding translated sentence in both languages. My Japanese and English aren't good enough to do that yet, but this is what I'm trying to do.
When I read 湖の水面に小さく波が立っているな, I imagined a male person looking through his binoculars at a lake. Next to him stands his friend. The guy describes what he can see in slightly awkward Japanese. When I turned everything into English, the guy said, "I can see ripples on the lake." I don't know how faithful this translation is or which part is doing what. I don't know the translation is natural in English either.
When I did the same thing to 湖の水面に小さく波が立っている, a monologue in a first person narrative novel popped up in my mind. The narrator is also a male, but he's standing alone by the lake. I may or may not write "I can see..." in this kind of situation in a novel. But I'd less likely write "I can see..." But then again, I've never written an English novel. I haven't read many novels in English either.
@chochajin
I don't understand what I'm supposed to address in the first three questions. I can't even tell if they're questions... I'll post explanations for the last two examples when I have time.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-02-21
chochajin Wrote:大阪から神戸____地震がありました。(Is that in the Advanced volume? I don't have that yet.) Anyway, the difference is that 'X kara Y made' is specific about its start and end points, whereas 'X kara Y ni kakete' is vaguer. You can take a train 大阪から神戸まで because you start exactly in 大阪 and go to 神戸 without any gaps in the middle. But the sentence about the earthquake is trying to describe a general area of effect: "roughly from X to around Y". 'ni kakete' appears a lot in weather forecasts.
a) まで b) にかけて c) について d) に対して
Okay, so I chose a) which is wrong (b) is correct, BECAUSE the "Dictionary of Japanese grammar" taught me that only "made" can be used with specific time and place statements, so if you say "from 9am to 10pm" or "from Shibuya to Shinjuku" then you can't use "nikakete" - at least that's what's written in the book. Why is "made" wrong then???
Quote:このカーテンは_______生地を使っています。Interesting one, I had to look this up. 日本語文型辞典 says がたい goes with verbs like 想像する、認める、許す、言う、表す relating to comprehending or saying things. My class notes from way back when say you can't use it with "肉体的な動作" or when "主語が もの / ことの場合", so you can't use がたい instead of にくい in:
a) 燃えにくい b) 燃えがたい c) 燃えやすい d) 燃えがちな
Why can't it be b)? Why is it a)? Because one can't think that there's a curtain made of something that's impossible to burn? Is that why?
この肉はかたすぎて食べにくい
この紙はもえにくい
怪我をしていて歩きにくい
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-21
chochajin Wrote:大阪から神戸____地震がありました。Probably the grammar book you have is trying to say pretty much the same thing as pm215's explanation. It seems like this is the most popular explanation for にかけて vs. まで you can find in textbooks for foreigners. But, to be honest, I don't think it's accurate.
a) まで b) にかけて c) について d) に対して
Okay, so I chose a) which is wrong (b) is correct, BECAUSE the "Dictionary of Japanese grammar" taught me that only "made" can be used with specific time and place statements, so if you say "from 9am to 10pm" or "from Shibuya to Shinjuku" then you can't use "nikakete" - at least that's what's written in the book. Why is "made" wrong then??? *headache*
Both can refer to a certain kind of range such as "from X to Y" as in "from 9am to 10pm." There are several usages when it comes to まで as a range marker. If you're interested, read advanced stuff written for native speakers or for linguists who have as good a command of Japanese as native speakers. I omit the detail here and will give a shorter explanation that doesn't distinguish different kinds of range marker までs.
The difference between the two Japanese range words is similar to "each" vs. "every" in English. When you use まで, you mentally put everything in the range into a group and see it as a single unite. The whole range is covered by the group. In this sense, まで is like "every" and "whole." When you use にかけて, you mentally see things in the range individually. I think the individualness (Is this even a word?) is weaker than what the word "each" suggests, but にかけて has less wholeness than まで.
A trickier point is that it's not the words that make the speaker see things individually or as a group. It's the speaker that chooses one from the other because s/he already has a mental model when a word is spoken. In other words, if things in a range are always seen individually in the Japanese culture, whether your culture/language treats the same things as a group doesn't matter. So never apply this individual vs. whole rule when you produce your own sentence. Use it as an aid to understand nuances.
Anyway, I'll explain this individual vs. whole thing a little more. If you want to say "He was dressed from head to foot in white," it's 頭の先からつま先まで, i.e., you see everything in the range as a single unit. But if you talk about a girl who kissed a guy from his neck to his chest, 首から胸にかけて is better. The reason is that the "whole" body kind of sense makes you see the white clothes as a group while the "part of his body" kind of sense combined with the "each kiss" kind of mental image evokes individualness in your mind. If she licks him rather than kisses him, 首から胸まで is slightly better. The range doesn't strongly evoke wholeness, but one whole lick from point A to B doesn't have the "each" kind of sense a number of kisses do. By the same token, if a person have red spots all over the body from head to foot, wholeness and individualness conflicts. In this case, the all over the body kind of wholeness wins. But if it's all over a limited part of his body, individualness often wins.
If you use a word that has a strong wholeness sense such as 全体に, it means you're seeing a situation with the wholeness sense. Here are illustrative examples to show how the individual vs. whole thing works:
頭の先からつま先まで疱疹が出ている -> Good. You don't use かけて. The whole body sense is so strong that blisters' individualness contribute little to the まで vs. かけて battle.
首から胸まで全体に疱疹が出ている -> ok. But you can also use かけて instead. Individualness factors are the limited range sense and blisters. But 全体に indicates you're saying the "whole" area is covered by blisters.
首から胸まで疱疹が出ている -> ok. This carries a nuance that the speaker is emphasizing "all over the range" without using an explicit word. かけて is better if it's a neutral sentence because it's not the whole body and and rashes are usually seen individually.
首から胸にかけて疱疹が出ている -> Good. Everything in this sentence is of the individual kind.
Another good example is weather. You'll often hear sentences like "明日は大阪から東京にかけて雨でしょう." This means each city in the range gets rain. 大阪から東京まで雨 is ok if you have a strong image of the "region between Osaka and Tokyo" and mean it rains tomorrow in the region. But this wording could also mean, say, one incredibly huge cloud is covering half of Japan's main island and the whole area under the cloud is going to get the same rain from the huuuuuge cloud. This interpretation is nearly impossible if you use にかけて.
So, にかけて is better in your example because the average native speaker doesn't have a strong region kind of sense that spans from Osaka to Kobe. Also, while it's technically one big earthquake, native Japanese speakers think that each city got hit an earthquake to a different degree. This might be another reason まで sounds odd.
I think the reason some people say にかけて is a vaguer range is this:
Here are two lines of Xs.
X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
X X X X XX X XXX X X X X
The first line is easier to see a "set" of Xs. But Xs in the second line appear at random so they're more likely seen as individuals (I think you'll agree if you hide the first line and only see the latter 14 Xs). The length of the two lines Xs lie on are technically the same. The number of Xs are exactly the same. But if you define the range where Xs can appear, don't you think the second one is a little vague? The vagueness is easier to notice if you hide the first line and try to define the range where Xs can appear. If there weren't the first line of Xs on top of the second line, you might say, "Xs appear around here" thinking there should be a little margin in the range at each end. But don't you think it's natural to define the range of the first line as "Xs appear from here to there" by pointing the exact Xs? If someone says there should be a margin at each edge of the first line, don't you think you can pinpoint the edge?
If you assume the lines are time axises and Xs events, you get a pair of illustrative examples of まで (the first line) and にかけて (the second line), e.g., 午前九時から午後十時まで規則正しく一時間毎にメールをチェックした。vs. 午前九時から午後十時にかけて断続的にメールが届いた。Of course, if you see the 14 emails as a unit (individually), you can say まで in the latter example (にかけて in the former example respectively). But in a normal situation native speakers would most likely choose まで for the regular sequence of the same kind of event and にかけて for events that happened at random.
This lines of X example doesn't explain everything, but all example sentences I came up with suggest that the difference is "individual" vs. "whole." I think the "individuals tend to have a vaguer range" thing blinded the textbook authors.
So, which is better for "He knows everything about Japan from kanji to anime"? Of course 漢字からアニメまで何でも知っている because you're not focusing on each individual subfield of knowledge. You're talking about his astounding knowledge as a whole. If you say 漢字からアニメにかけて何でも知っている, it sounds like "He knows kanji well and also knows anime well, and he's also familiar with individual things that fall somewhere between the two. But he doesn't know other things." In fact, you don't need to explicitly say 日本について in the まで version to mean everything about Japanese. But the にかけて version sounds like there is a list that includes kanji and anime as items, i.e., you sound like you're talking about each item between kanji and anime on the Japanese thing list.
chochajin Wrote:このカーテンは_______生地を使っています。I could give a loooooooong explanation for this. But I think I already spent too much space. I'll post a short explanation when I have time.
a) 燃えにくい b) 燃えがたい c) 燃えやすい d) 燃えがちな
Why can't it be b)? Why is it a)? Because one can't think that there's a curtain made of something that's impossible to burn? Is that why?
By the way, why is c) wrong? Or can multiple items be considered right?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - quincy - 2010-02-21
I ran into what I think are a couple of idioms that I just can't figure out.
シズ様の、今までまったく攻撃された歴史がないのかとの質問に、
「私の体験だけでも、両手両足の指以上。しかし私達は、その全てを平和的に解決しました
and
「鍵をかけずに、用を足しているみたいだよ。落ち着かない」
The second one brings up a lot of search results, so it must be a common phrase, but I can't find the meaning anywhere. The first one I have no idea.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-21
quincy Wrote: シズ様の、今までまったく攻撃された歴史がないのかとの質問に、Toes and thumbs are also considered "fingers" in Japanese. 以上 is "more than or equal to." So it means ">= 5 (right hand) + 5 (left hand) + 5 (right foot) + 5 (left foot) =20."
「私の体験だけでも、両手両足の指以上。しかし私達は、その全てを平和的に解決しました
quincy Wrote:「鍵をかけずに、用を足しているみたいだよ。落ち着かない」用を足す has a few idiomatic meanings. In this case, probably it's like a phrase "relieve yourself" and refers to getting rid of excreta from your body. I think he's taking a shit without locking the door.
The second one brings up a lot of search results, so it must be a common phrase, but I can't find the meaning anywhere. The first one I have no idea.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chochajin - 2010-02-21
Hello and thanks to everyone who's still willing to help me （'^ω^）
A few more questions, mainly from KiC this time:
先生のお供をして、学会に行った。
I thought お供 is a suru verb, so why is there a を between them?
政治を変えることは、困難ではあるが不可能ではない。しかし、そのためには政治家だけではなく、国民の意識も変わらなければならない。
Why do they use "ではある" here (never heard/read this before) and not です?
And it's not a typo this time, I checked beforehand!
狭いアパートで独り寝するのは、寂しいものだ。
What COULD be the meaning of ものだ here? I know it's difficult to say without context, but it's a KiC sentence, so no context.
It used to be lonely? I should be lonely?
地球上に人類が現れたのは、地球の歴史の中では、つい最近のことです。
What's the function of つい here? Something like "quite" as in "quite recent(ly)"?
chochajin Wrote:このカーテンは_______生地を使っています。
a) 燃えにくい b) 燃えがたい c) 燃えやすい d) 燃えがちな
Why can't it be b)? Why is it a)? Because one can't think that there's a curtain made of something that's impossible to burn? Is that why?
magamo様 Wrote:By the way, why is c) wrong? Or can multiple items be considered right?No, you were supposed to choose the 一番適当な答え.
Thanks so much for your long and detailed explanation of まで vs. にかけて. I think I understood it waaay better now
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-21
chochajin Wrote:Hello and thanks to everyone who's still willing to help me （'^ω^）Some "suru verbs" can take を between them; which ones can and which ones can't is a very complicated topic which isn't really necessary to go into great detail about.
A few more questions, mainly from KiC this time:
先生のお供をして、学会に行った。
I thought お供 is a suru verb, so why is there a を between them?
Quote:政治を変えることは、困難ではあるが不可能ではない。しかし、そのためには政治家だけではなく、国民の意識も変わらなければならない。It's a way to use the contrastive は with the copula. "It is difficult, but not impossible."
Why do they use "ではある" here (never heard/read this before) and not です?
And it's not a typo this time, I checked beforehand!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Hinode - 2010-02-22
Thanks again for the explanation magamo!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Verdana - 2010-02-25
Quick question, does 体の小さな動物 mean "small bodied animal" or "small animal body"?
Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Smackle - 2010-02-25
Verdana Wrote:Quick question, does 体の小さな動物 mean "small bodied animal" or "small animal body"?Small bodied animal. If it was supposed to be the other, then the 体 would be afterwards.
Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Amaterasu - 2010-02-25
How would one adjective be doubled for emphasis? In English, especially in children's language, one can say "red, red strawberry" to double the emphasis of the redness. Or, "dark, dark room" to describe it being very dark. How would an adjective be doubled in Japanese?
赤くて赤いイチゴ
赤く赤いイチゴ
赤い赤いイチゴ
Which would be correct? (if any)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ciermel - 2010-02-25
I was browsing through random jp blogs when I noticed something I had never come across before. This guy is using 号 instead of 日 for counting days and 一、二、三 and so forth in place of 月，火、水（曜日）- by the way, 天 replaces 日（曜日）. Hopefully that makes sense too ;>__>
Now, of course this is just out of curiosity...anyone care to explain what's up with this slightly different calendar? I've made some research on wiki and I guess this has something to do with 年号 but can't come up with a definite answer. Thank you!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mr_hans_moleman - 2010-02-25
Amaterasu Wrote:How would one adjective be doubled for emphasis? In English, especially in children's language, one can say "red, red strawberry" to double the emphasis of the redness. Or, "dark, dark room" to describe it being very dark. How would an adjective be doubled in Japanese?Google is your friend.
赤くて赤いイチゴ
赤く赤いイチゴ
赤い赤いイチゴ
Which would be correct? (if any)
All of them are good.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-26
Amaterasu Wrote:How would one adjective be doubled for emphasis? In English, especially in children's language, one can say "red, red strawberry" to double the emphasis of the redness. Or, "dark, dark room" to describe it being very dark. How would an adjective be doubled in Japanese?あかーいいちご and くらーいへや, though it's baby talk, i.e., "mommy talk." So real children may not say them as often as their moms. Kids might talk like that in scripted dialogue, but in real life kids speak crazy language. In this sense the three expressions in your post are all possible. If asked to choose one from the three, I'd say the third one sounds the cutest.
赤くて赤いイチゴ
赤く赤いイチゴ
赤い赤いイチゴ
Which would be correct? (if any)
Ciermel Wrote:I was browsing through random jp blogs when I noticed something I had never come across before. This guy is using 号 instead of 日 for counting days and 一、二、三 and so forth in place of 月，火、水（曜日）- by the way, 天 replaces 日（曜日）. Hopefully that makes sense too ;>__>Too little context. You might want to give a link to the blog articles.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yukimine - 2010-02-26
Hi people. I have a new question this time. I was reading a manga when I found this sentence:
「おまえ、みそ汁飲みながらジャムつきパン食うのよせよー」
I searched around and found that the よせよ in this sentence means something like やめろよ. But if that's right, why there's only a の between the verb and よせよ? Wouldn't the proper form be something like: 「おまえ、みそ汁飲みながらジャムつきパン食うのをよせよー」? Was the を dropped on purpose? Or does のよせよ means something else?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-26
yukimine Wrote:Hi people. I have a new question this time. I was reading a manga when I found this sentence:Using を and が is not a requirement in normal speech, only in formal speech and writing. Since this manga sentence is representing speech, it's fine not to have to を.
「おまえ、みそ汁飲みながらジャムつきパン食うのよせよー」
I searched around and found that the よせよ in this sentence means something like やめろよ. But if that's right, why there's only a の between the verb and よせよ? Wouldn't the proper form be something like: 「おまえ、みそ汁飲みながらジャムつきパン食うのをよせよー」? Was the を dropped on purpose? Or does のよせよ means something else?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-02-28
Couple of quick questions about this sentence:
そういや待ち合わせしたんだっけ。すっかり忘れたよ。
First of all, I guess that そういや is casual for そういう right? What's the だっけ about though? Only thing that comes to mind is って...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mr_hans_moleman - 2010-02-28
I searched http://chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/ and found this:
「そういや」と「そういえば」は同じものですね、「そういや」は口語で、「そういえば」は文語ですね。
Here's an example of だっけ：
For example you are walking down the street and you see this cute girl。You approach her and say:
あれ、どこであったっけ？ (A bit different from だっけ、but it's the same)
”Wait, have we met before?"
Another example is when you are trying to recall some information.
名前何だっけ？
By the way, don't you have rikachan? If you had it, a simple scroll-over would have given you the meaning. Just a tip.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-02-28
Thanks ^^
I use stardict, which didn't have anything for it. I'll give rikachan a shot
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - whitefox - 2010-03-01
I just came across this sentence in Core 2k:
システムの構成を変えてみました。
I've tried to reorganize the system.
I'd never come across ~てみる before. In Tae Kim, it says that it means to try something out (i.e., a new food, store, etc). The translation makes it sound more like the person is attempting to reorganize the system, which I would think would be ~とする. Am I understanding this wrong?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Smackle - 2010-03-01
てみる is like trying something and seeing the results.
「あの男に話しかけてみる」
I'll try to talk to that man.
とする is like attempting something that may not be possible or that may be strenuous/hard.
If you look at the sentence at hand, it simply means that they tried changing stuff. To make a change here or there isn't quite the momentous task.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - whitefox - 2010-03-01
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks a lot!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - blackmacros - 2010-03-02
I can't find the meaning of キモい.
It's from a sentence in Tokyo DOGS where the main character, or something he does (cooking sausages in the shape of an octopus), is referred to as キモい. Then there is a brief conversation about why she shouldn't say that to him and then the sentence:
「キモい」の意味 知らないわ。 セーフ。 食べて 食べて
A quick google comes up with a wikipedia article about how it is a 若者言葉 but that doesn't really help me.
So, anyone know?