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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-01-31
の and こと aren't interchangeable. But that's not the main point. I don't know how I should put it, but it seems the book's rule says sentences like "Xするには反対です" and "Xする、には反対です" are ungrammatical regardless of context because Xする can't be a purpose, i.e., it can't be "for," "in order to," and so on. But if Xする is, say, a political thing, I guess some people would use the の-less version to avoid giving the sense of の. 賛成する is also a verb that could be used without の because of the same reason, I think.
I googled for "するには反対です" and it seems almost all examples are sort of political or things that speakers don't want others to take it as "Xするのには反対です (implying "but I can agree with him in general," "but I agree with the other thing," etc)", e.g., 国歌を歌うように個人に強制するには反対ですが…, and 参政権などの特権を付与するには反対です。
Maybe this kind of sentence is considered wrong. Maybe the rare examples are all typos. But I kind of think they didn't use の because the ideas/thoughts they had in their minds didn't have the sense of の when they formed the sentences. They didn't compare anything in the sentences. I mean, they just wanted to say "I disagree with X," "I'm against doing X," etc. Of course, I wouldn't say these are better than the のには versions. But if those sentences are what they wanted to mean and make sense, I don't know if they should be considered wrong just because they don't follow typical patterns. Hmm. I don't know what "ungrammatical" means any more...
Anyway, I don't think there are many situations that make speakers want to say 人の性格を見抜くには長けている. I guess のには version is almost always better for almost all verbs/phrases when it's not about "purpose," though I only checked several common words for the verb+には+verb/phrase structure and typical situations.
I don't know if this is just 反対する/賛成する tend to be used in a situation where people make grammatical errors more frequently or this is a special usage of the verbs. Maybe those examples on the internet are all grammatical errors made by native speakers. But if so, it's kind of strange that certain verbs are more vulnerable to grammatical errors...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2010-01-31
*head hurts* :-)
Just to clarify, the book only describes the "purpose" には. It doesn't say anything about whether or not の must be used in all others cases of V+には. I just wanted to point out earlier that the "purpose rules" wouldn't necessarily apply.
Thanks for looking for other examples of Vには. I'll keep your comments in mind when I'm reading. (btw, I have no illusions of grammar conformity. My hope is to one day be able to write using natural grammar "mistakes." heh)
In case anyone's interested, here's a list of some compound particles that can follow both Nouns and Verbs directly. (From DIJG, but there may be input errors.) [edit: btw, I think には is the only one with a comment that Vの can be used.]
には (above)
と同時に at the (same) time; when: as; while; as well as
部屋に入ると同時に電話が鳴った。
(The telephone rang as I entered the room.)
と共に as well as; with, along with; at the same time; when; as; while
病気が回復すると共に食欲も出てきた。
(As I recover from my illness, my appetite is coming back.)
に当たって/ に当たりwhen; at; in; on the occasion of; before; prior to
新しい事業を始めるに当たって、$$の資金を確保しなければならない。
(Before starting a new business, I have to secure $$ in funds.)
に際して/ に際し in case of; on; when; at; in
日本を離れるに際し家財道具を全部処分した。
(When leaving Japan, I got rid of all my household goods.)
に従って as; with; in accordance with; in proportion to; following
二本の経済力が強くなるに従って日本語学習者が増えてきた。
(As Japan's economic power gets stronger, the number of Japanese language learners has increased.)
にしては for; considering that
彼はアメリカ大学で学位を取ったにしては英語が下手だ。
(Considering that he received a degree from an American university, his English is poor.)
に伴って/伴い: as; along with, with; accompanying; attendant upon
景気が回復するに伴い失業率が下がってきた。
(As the economy recovers, the unemployment rate is decreasing.)
につれて: as; with; in proportion to; accompanied by
年をとるにつれて体力が衰えてくる。
(As one grows old, one loses physical strength.)
These last 2 follow Verbs only:
ことで by V-ing; because; result in; cause
私は週末にゴルフをすることで気分転換を図っています。
(I try to lift my spirits by playing golf on weekends.)
上で upon; after; in -ing
この辞書を日本語を勉強する上で大変役に立つ。
(This dictionary is very useful in studying Japanese.)
[typo: 日本語]
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2010-01-31
Wow, you guys are amazing
Thanks a lot for the explanation and examples! Honestly, I think the proper usage of に has been one of the trickiest things for me to follow in SRS as there are just so many applications of it (plus usage of には), but this is a great help.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-31
IceCream Wrote:isn't there a difference between the の that makes a doing word into a thing, and the の in のに, which, um... i dunno, is just totally different?There are two different のに uses.
勉強するのに、全然覚えられない。 (Even though I study, I can't remember anything.)
勉強するのには、SRSを使った方がいい。 (For studying, you should use an SRS.)
Grammatically the の is doing the same thing in both instances (nominalizing a verb).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-31
IceCream Wrote:人の性格を見抜くのには長けている。-> ok,The の is still changing it into a noun, though. The のには as a whole means "for the purpose of doing", but if you break that down into the three particles の, に, and は, the の's function is to nominalize the preceding clause.
人の性格を見抜くことには長けている。-> ok.
人の性格を見抜くのには深い洞察力が必要だ
This のには isn't a nominaliser. It's for the purpose of doing x (doing x = reading peoples personalities), profound insight is necessary.
Quote:in fact... isn't the easy way of testing whether something is a nominaliser or not is whether the verb before it can appear in another tense and make sense?The nominalizer の can appear after any tense as well. 彼が失敗したのを見た。
so, for example のに is not a nominaliser, because it can appear after any verb tense...
You are right that のに taken as a single unit is not a nominalizer. But the root of that unit is nominalizer の + に (this is closer to the classical copula に than the modern particle, although it's all pretty much the same in origin.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SammyB - 2010-01-31
あそこにパトカーがいる。
this is from core2000... why いる? It is because there are people in the patrol car... and therefore it's a living thing, sort of? o_O
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-31
いる is sometimes used with moving things that aren't living, particularly with things that will only be in a place for a short time -- it seems especially common with バス.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-01
SammyB Wrote:あそこにパトカーがいる。You could say that's because there are people in the car, but the real reason is because it's "in operation." あそこにパトカーがいる implies that the speaker is thinking it's kind of an animated object. For example, it might mean if you do something illegal over there, you'd be caught. Maybe the speaker has been looking for a police officer and just found a patrol car pull over. He might be a criminal on the loose and trying to lose the police.
this is from core2000... why いる? It is because there are people in the patrol car... and therefore it's a living thing, sort of? o_O
あそこにパトカーがある is ok, but it sounds like the patrol car is sort of inanimate or "dead." For example, if you were a criminal on the loose and said it, you might mean "Hey, look. It's a patrol car. I don't see the police there. I'm going to steal it." The patrol car is just an object that can do nothing to you by itself.
So if there is a patrol car and a person who is not a policeman is in there, it's "あそこにパトカーがある。中に人はいるが警官はいない。" when there is no policemen. あそこにパトカーがいる makes it sound like there is at least one policeman in/near the car.
You can use いる and ある the same way for, say, タクシー. If someone says あそこにタクシーがいる, it means you can take the cab or the driver is taking someone somewhere. あそこにタクシーがある sounds like there is a car, which is classified as a cab. Probably no one is there in the car.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - liosama - 2010-02-01
magamo Wrote:Guessing you can do the same thing with personifying objects and stuff yeah? Making a candle stick talk or a bunch of plates and kitchenware move etc means they are living right?SammyB Wrote:あそこにパトカーがいる。You could say that's because there are people in the car, but the real reason is because it's "in operation." あそこにパトカーがいる implies that the speaker is thinking it's kind of an animated object. For example, it might mean if you do something illegal over there, you'd be caught. Maybe the speaker has been looking for a police officer and just found a patrol car pull over. He might be a criminal on the loose and trying to lose the police.
this is from core2000... why いる? It is because there are people in the patrol car... and therefore it's a living thing, sort of? o_O
あそこにパトカーがある is ok, but it sounds like the patrol car is sort of inanimate or "dead." For example, if you were a criminal on the loose and said it, you might mean "Hey, look. It's a patrol car. I don't see the police there. I'm going to steal it." The patrol car is just an object that can do nothing to you by itself.
So if there is a patrol car and a person who is not a policeman is in there, it's "あそこにパトカーがある。中に人はいるが警官はいない。"
You can use いる and ある the same way for, say, タクシー. If someone says あそこにタクシーがいる, it means you can take the cab or the driver is taking someone somewhere. あそこにタクシーがある sounds like there is a car, which is classified as a cab. Probably no one is there in the car.
I asked my teacher this back in first year she ignored me the bitch, but I assumed I was right anyway
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-01
liosama Wrote:Guessing you can do the same thing with personifying objects and stuff yeah? Making a candle stick talk or a bunch of plates and kitchenware move etc means they are living right?Technically you can treat anything as animate stuff, but some things are easier to see as living things and others are not. If you use words for animate objects when you refer to definitely inanimate stuff, it might sound poetic and/or rhetorical.
I asked my teacher this back in first year she ignored me the bitch, but I assumed I was right anyway
Patrol cars, taxis, ambulances, and other vehicles that have their own jobs tend to be considered animated and いる collocates with them in normal speech. If they're not "working," they're inanimate. So it's not strange to say 消防車がいる if the fire engine is trying to contain a fire. But 10台消防車があります is better if it's "The fire station has 10 fire engines."
Geeks tend to treat PCs, servers, software, etc. as animate stuff, but it's geeky rather than poetic. Stuffed animals are often a subject of personification. People might think you're too girlie, gay, or perverted if you use いる for stuffed animals, figurines etc. too much, but it's a personal preference, I think.
Probably there is a set of inanimate objects that tend to be used with いる and other words for animate stuff, but I don't know if there is a list available on the internet or in a textbook.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SammyB - 2010-02-01
thanks for the clear explanation!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zorlee - 2010-02-04
Quickie:
京都駅の中を地下通路を歩いて通ったら、北側の京都タワーのある方に出られますよ！
方 is ほう here, right?
I know the meaning (direction etc.), and I'm pretty sure it's ほう, but I'm always a bit unsure when 方 is attached directly to a verb. I just wanted to be 100% sure, before entering that sentence...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-04
Yes. AFAIK the only time it's かた is when it refers to a person, or in old Japanese.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mr_hans_moleman - 2010-02-04
Zorlee Wrote:Quickie:Yes it is.
京都駅の中を地下通路を歩いて通ったら、北側の京都タワーのある方に出られますよ！
方 is ほう here, right?
I know the meaning (direction etc.), and I'm pretty sure it's ほう, but I'm always a bit unsure when 方 is attached directly to a verb. I just wanted to be 100% sure, before entering that sentence...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2010-02-04
Zorlee Wrote:京都駅の中を地下通路を歩いて通ったら、北側の京都タワーのある方に出られますよ！Huh, at first glance that looks like a sentence with two をs. Presumably it means the same thing as 地下通路を歩いて京都駅の中を通ったら... ?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-04
I wonder whether that's a typo -- there's something called the "double-を constraint" that says two を's cannot be in the same clause. I wonder whether that's supposed to be 中の地下通路 instead.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zorlee - 2010-02-05
IceCream: Actually, あるかた is used when talking about being handicapped etc. So it is valid, at least as far as I know! =)
pm215: Yeah, I noticed that as well, but I guess it means the same thing. It's a sentence in a mail I received from a friend in Kyoto, so it's 100% native, if not 100% grammatically correct, hehe.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-05
@Zorlee:
有る＋方 would be ありかた, not あるかた.
What you apparently found when you googled あるかた is a different construct. 障害のある方, which is 障害のある (has disabilities)+方 (person, not way of doing things) = person with disabilities, not a person existing in a manner that is disabled.
It has nothing to with disabilities itself.
Ex: ひものある靴 = a shoe with laces. 髪のある方 = a person with hair. 髪のない方 = a person without hair
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Babyrat - 2010-02-05
A simple one but still has me stumped
context: いつもお腹でして寝てるからだよー
the reply which is confusing me:
え。。？ しょうがないでしょでちゃうんだから
the bold is the part that I dont fully understand. How I'm seeing it at the moment is "eh? I cant really help that can I" but I'm not sure how to properly translate it because of the ちゃうんだ
bonus points whoever guesses what manga thats from!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2010-02-05
Babyrat Wrote:え。。？ しょうがないでしょでちゃうんだからえ…？ 仕様が無いでしょ？ 出てしまうのだから。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zorlee - 2010-02-05
Jarvik7 Wrote:@Zorlee:Ah, sweet. Thank you for the heads up! =)
有る＋方 would be ありかた, not あるかた.
What you apparently found when you googled あるかた is a different construct. 障害のある方, which is 障害のある (has disabilities)+方 (person, not way of doing things) = person with disabilities, not a person existing in a manner that is disabled.
It has nothing to with disabilities itself.
Ex: ひものある靴 = a shoe with laces. 髪のある方 = a person with hair. 髪のない方 = a person without hair
I have a couple of questions here:
Girl's been dumped:
Girl: ゴミ？ これにはね 石関さんの優しさが詰まってるの。(talking about a hankerchief)
Bartender: それだから振られんのよ。 なあ。
Bartender 2: つうか ぶっちゃけ重いっすよ。
Bartender: まっ そんなもん 大事にしてるうちは無理ね。
あんたみたいなのがタイプだって 男でも現れないかぎり。
Well, this is a biggie, but I put it all in for the context.
My problems:
I don't understand ぶっちゃけ重い. I've heard ぶっちゃけ before, as in being frank / speaking one's mind etc, but I don't get this.
I must say that I have troubles with the rest of the dialogue as well, especially あんたみたいなのがタイプ, I really don't understand the が in there.
Last, but not least:
愛を捧げる抜くロボットか。
I don't get the 抜く
I know the one type of ぬく grammar (as in completely/to the end etc), but first of all, that's used after the masu stem of a verb, and second of all, that doesn't make that much sense in this setting. Can it mean "to surpass", or close to that? (On the other hand, in the original subs it said 捧げ (masu), BUT I can clearly hear the dude saying 捧げる, so I don't know...)
Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zorlee - 2010-02-06
Ah, thank you! =)
It does say 捧げ抜く originally, but I'm pretty sure I'm hearing る in there, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, I won't base my mining on my bad transcriptions, so I'll just stick with the sub files!
EDIT: あんたみたいなのがタイプだって 男でも現れないかぎり
I still don't get the last part of this sentence. Magamo said something like "unless X is/does Y". I just don't get that, in combination with the あんたみたいなのがタイプだって (meaning roughly "a type like you (as in a type that's like/similar to you)" or something like that, no?)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2010-02-06
@Zorlee
だって is kind of an informal version of だという, i.e., あんたみたいなのがタイプだって男でも現れないかぎり is almost the same as あなたみたいな人が好きだという男が現れない限り (unless you run across a guy who has a fetish for girls like you)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Zorlee - 2010-02-06
Ah!! Thank you!
Clear as day!
EDIT:
Some questions from today's session:
食ってみ - I'm guessing this is slang for 食ってみる/食ってみて? Is it?
ぐうだら - I'm guessing this is the same as ぐうたら (as in lazy/good-for-nothing)? Or?
こんなの頼んでませんけど。何なんですか。
何なんですか - This means 何なのですか, right? As in "what/who is this (thing/person/)"
スイーツ界の名門雑誌「Ｃｏｎｆｉｓｅｒｉｅ」は皆さまもよく知るところでしょう。
I get this sentence, but ところ's wide usage is still a bit confusing for me. How would this differ from f.ex よく知っている？
Thank you guys!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - TheVinster - 2010-02-06
Some newbie questions here, but they show up a lot in my dramas so I'll just ask. I'm stupid.
どういうこと = Referring to an event of some sort?
Umm... often times people in dramas say something then add って at the end of the word? Even with a name, so I think I saw: 莉子ちゃんって. I'm not sure, trying to go off memory, but it's not just with names. Should be "te-form" am I wrong? Some form of it?