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+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
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RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tetsueda - 2016-02-28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis#Last_Thursdayism
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-02-29
Simple question here.
Context: guy needs help reading.
Speaker A: これ。授業の発表のために読んでるんだけど、知らない単語が多すぎて読めないんだ。辞書で調べようとしたんだけど、漢字の読み方が分からなくて。
Speaker B: インターネットの記事か。じゃ、popjisyo.com とか rikai.com みたいなサイト、使えば？
Speaker A: popjisyo.com って、何？
Does this mean 使えばどうですか or does it mean something else? Is this way to end questions any common? I don't recall ever hearing anything like this.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-02-29
Yes, minus the politeness. Might carry the connotation that it's an obvious suggestion. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." "Have you considered not doing that?"
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zx573 - 2016-02-29
Yeah, it's pretty common but it's more of a casual speech kind of thing. Your guess is correct though. You don't even need the ですか part: "～みたいなサイトを使えばどう？" would still be fine. This is just taking the shortening one step further.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-03-02
I have some more questions
The first one is about using 限り to convey a time limit. Usually it refers to the end of a period as in this sentence from a DoIJG:
セールは明日限りです - Tomorrow is the last day of the sale
However in the entry there was also this example sentence:
今日限りで酒もタバコもやめます - From today on I will give up both drinking and smoking
While reading it I was expecting something along the lines of 'until today I had...' however after reading the verb at the end this couldn't be, so how do I tell the 'from' and 'until' meanings apart? Can I only rely on context or is the で after 限り in the last sentence making the difference?
On a completely different note, in this passage about a girl having to move and change school because of her father's job:
でもおかしいでしょ。いくら何でも昨日の今日よ。転勤の辞令から引っ越しまで一日もないって、どんな仕事よ、それ
What does 'いくら何でも昨日の今日よ' mean? 'No matter how you look at it, it was just too sudden'?
Finally the word 流行, should I read it as りゅうこう or はやり? Which context calls for which?
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-03-02
限り marks the point something ends. やめる ends the drinking and smoking.
いくらなんでも means "No matter the excuse, that is just not acceptable".
はやり is normally 流行り, 流行 is normally りゅうこう. You might see 流行り言葉 spelled 流行言葉 (and this is a general pattern: 取締役 = 取り締まり役, and the former is the normal spelling).
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-03-02
So that's how 限り works! Thanks a lot Vempele!
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-03-02
Just saw a sentence, but I'm not exactly sure it means what I think.
日本の食べ物は体にいいと考えられているが、実は、てんぷらやトンカツなど、油をたくさん使うカロリーの高い料理も多い。
I thought that 高い actually meant expensive, but it seems that カロリーの高い is an expression that means high in calorie. Is that correct? If so, is there any logic explanation as to why it's ordered like that? Because it doesn't seem to be any sense to mean.
It's like I'm reading Shakespearen... instead of saying "rich foods", the person says "foods rich". Wouldn't it make more sense to say something like 高いカロリーの料理 instead? It wouldn't be that weird to read something like カロリーが高い either, although I don't know if that would be grammatically acceptable in a sentence like that. It's just that, even if the expressions just "means that because people say it that way for some mysterious reason", it seems to go against the grammar I've studied so far.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-03-02
の can replace が in subordinate clauses; it won't change the meaning.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-03-02
(2016-03-02, 7:48 pm)Vempele Wrote: の can replace が in subordinate clauses; it won't change the meaning.
I see. I recall briefly reading that somewhere. So カロリーが高い would have been fine as well in that sentence? Just to make sure.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-03-02
It'd sound unidiomatic: <property>の<adjective>noun phrases like that almost always use の. I think it might be more common the shorter the clause is, in general.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2016-03-03
(2016-03-02, 7:33 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: I thought that 高い actually meant expensiveI think "high/tall" is the more 'basic' meaning (opposite of 低い). Prices can be high in English too...
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-03-03
Oh right I edited that part of my explanation out when I noticed the other question...
Daijirin actually lists "expensive" as a special case of its "high in quantity" definition, which is #5. Numbers are 大きい/小さい, quantities are 高い/低い.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-03-04
Does スポーツを通して学ぶ心 mean "the heart/mind/spirit that learns through sports"?
EDIT: There's also another sentence in particular that I couldn't understand in the same article. It goes like this:
柔道や剣道、空手や合気道など、日本に昔からある武道では、まず「礼に始まり礼に終わる」という考え方が大切だと考えられる。そして、この考え方は、武道がスポーツとして世界中で楽しまれるようになっても、変わっていない。
A literal translation based on what I know so far would be something like "Even if martial arts become a 'widepsread source of joy around the world', this way of thinking won't change." I know that sentence sounds weird, but it's kind of a weird way to put it in English imo.
However, I think this sentence could also mean "Despite the fact that martial arts have become a 'widepsread source of joy around the world', this way of thinking hasn't changed." So, which one is it?
It's like I'm going through a stage of learning where all sorts of weird relative clauses are shoved in my face. But it's a good thing because I'm learning a lot of stuff and becoming more confident. Hopefully, these sentences won't be as confusing by the time I finish Tobira.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - RandomQuotes - 2016-03-04
(2016-03-04, 10:37 am)FlameseeK Wrote: Does スポーツを通して学ぶ心 mean "the heart/mind/spirit that learns through sports"?
Yup.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-03-04
(2016-03-04, 10:37 am)FlameseeK Wrote: EDIT: There's also another sentence in particular that I couldn't understand in the same article. It goes like this:
柔道や剣道、空手や合気道など、日本に昔からある武道では、まず「礼に始まり礼に終わる」という考え方が大切だと考えられる。そして、この考え方は、武道がスポーツとして世界中で楽しまれるようになっても、変わっていない。
A literal translation based on what I know so far would be something like "Even if martial arts become a 'widespread source of joy around the world', this way of thinking won't change." I know that sentence sounds weird, but it's kind of a weird way to put it in English imo.
However, I think this sentence could also mean "Despite the fact that martial arts have become a 'widespread source of joy around the world', this way of thinking hasn't changed." So, which one is it?
The key is 変わっていない. The "not changing" is a continuing state, so "hasn't changed" is the correct interpretation. Another clue is そして ("furthermore") - he's continuing the previous thought, not starting a hypothetical.
It's not really a "despite", though. Japanese martial arts (and presumably the way of thinking) are old, and even as they have become widely practiced* around the world (and meanwhile a long time has passed between 昔 and now), this way of thinking remains unchanged.
*Your version is too flowery. Mine isn't flowery enough, but the point of the sentence is elsewhere so I'd err towards the less flowery (also, even though the original is a bit flowery, it's still a standard expression. Hard to translate it into English without losing either the floweriness or the standardness).
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-03-05
(2016-03-04, 10:37 am)FlameseeK Wrote: 柔道や剣道、空手や合気道など、日本に昔からある武道では、まず「礼に始まり礼に終わる」という考え方が大切だと考えられる。そして、この考え方は、武道がスポーツとして世界中で楽しまれるようになっても、変わっていない。
I would say,
"Judou and Kendou, Karate and Aikido, and the list goes on. From the start there has been an important way of thinking, that is, that Japan's lineage of marshal arts begin and end with a bow. Furthermore, while these martial arts are enjoyed throughout the world as sport, this way of thinking remains unchanged."
I'm not sure exactly where 'a widespread source of joy' comes from... 世界中 does kind of imply widespread in a sense, but 'a widespread source of joy' sounds like it affects many people, while this use of 世界中 is more about how widely martial arts are spread geographically, rather than how many people they affect.
楽しまれる also isn't really 'a source of joy'. It's quite simply 'to be enjoyable' (ie. the passive of to enjoy). I feel like your translation maybe tries to hard to avoid turning the passive into an active verb, but Japanese often uses the passive where we would use the active in English. I think this is one such trap in terms of translation. (Especially tricksy when -both- languages are omitting the subject, which is of course students of martial arts. In the broad sense of students.) Your translation seems almost like you're translating from a causative rather than a passive.
I strongly second Vempele's statements that -ていない here means 'hasn't', and that －ても here isn't particularly 'despite'. There is a contrastive element along those lines, but 'despite' is too strong, I think.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-03-05
I came across another sentence I can't understand in the ハルヒ涼宮の憂鬱 novel, I added some lines before and after for context. The part I don't get is the one from 肩 to 避ける, what does it mean?
And how should I interpret that マネ at the beginning? Something like 'what are you doing?!' ?
すぐ横を歩く古泉の手が俺の手を握った。何のマネだ、気持ち悪い。
「すみませんが、しばし目を閉じていただけませんか。すぐすみます。ほんの数秒で」
肩がぶつかりそうになった会社員風のスーツ姿を身体をよじって避ける。
青信号が点滅を始める。
いいだろう。俺は素直に目をつむった。
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Roketzu - 2016-03-05
(2016-03-05, 9:56 am)Kuroro Wrote: I came across another sentence I can't understand in the ハルヒ涼宮の憂鬱 novel, I added some lines before and after for context. The part I don't get is the one from 肩 to 避ける, what does it mean?
And how should I interpret that マネ at the beginning? Something like 'what are you doing?!' ?
すぐ横を歩く古泉の手が俺の手を握った。何のマネだ、気持ち悪い。
「すみませんが、しばし目を閉じていただけませんか。すぐすみます。ほんの数秒で」
肩がぶつかりそうになった会社員風のスーツ姿を身体をよじって避ける。
青信号が点滅を始める。
いいだろう。俺は素直に目をつむった。
He's saying he twists his body in such a way that he avoids bashing shoulders with some guy in a suit.
何のマネ(真似) is typically used in a derogatory way by someone criticizing another's actions/behavior. What you said is right, though maybe 'what the hell/***** are you doing' would suit more serious situations where this is said.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-03-05
Thank you so much Roketzu!
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-03-05
@SomeCallMeChris
I know what is initially said sounds off, but the choice of word and grammar structure to convey this message in Japanese makes it too difficult to translate properly. Chances are any translations we come up with will either convey the message while losing a bit of the original nuance or sound pretty odd, because nobody would put it quite like that in English.
But don't worry, I understand what you guys are saying. Thanks to you guys, the nuance of the message is much clearer now.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - germb - 2016-03-06
Hello! I have a lot of trouble understanding Japanese tweets. Here's one I was trying to figure out today:
自然に言い過ぎて完璧にその考え抜けてた･･･そうやでそうやで！
It's a response to someone else's tweet.
What little I'm getting is something like: "(I) naturally exaggerate/say too much and had been completely leaving that thought out...right, right" :/
Thanks for your help!
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-03-06
(2016-03-06, 2:39 am)germb Wrote: Hello! I have a lot of trouble understanding Japanese tweets. Here's one I was trying to figure out today:
自然に言い過ぎて完璧にその考え抜けてた･･･そうやでそうやで！
It's a response to someone else's tweet.
What little I'm getting is something like: "(I) naturally exaggerate/say too much and had been completely leaving that thought out...right, right" :/
Thanks for your help!
Japanese is an extremely context-sensitive language, so it's not really possible to give an accurate interpretation of a sentence that is a response to a completely unknown context.
However, 「自然言いすぎて」 cannot mean 'I naturally exaggerate' nor 'I naturally say too much'. Staying as close as possible to that interpretation, it could mean 'In the moment, I said more than I should have', but it's not particularly clear to me that speaker is the subject of this sentence.
考え抜く is a verb meaning to think through thoroughly, but 考えが抜ける would mean something like what you speculated. (But 抜けるis intransitive, so it means more 'the thought was omitted' than 'I had been leaving that thought out'). So there's two almost opposite interpretations depending on whether the context makes more sense for 'I was able to thoroughly think through' (potential of 考え抜く) or if 'the thought was omitted' (assuming a dropped particle) makes more sense.
Well, a native speaker could probably identify quickly the most likely interpretation especially with the idiomatic ending to the sentence that would tell such a person a lot about the speaker, but most foreign speakers of the language (including me) don't really have quite that degree of intuition. And it's always possible for any given ambiguous phrase to actually be the less likely case, and at such times even the native speaker's intuition will give the wrong answer.
in short, if you want accurate translations to fragments of Japanese, it's better to provide context.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2016-03-06
"i say it so naturally I never thought of that... that's right! that's right!"
it won't be 考え抜く the verb - see the その before 考え.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - shaydwyrm - 2016-03-10
This is from ようこそ地球さん, a book of short stories by 星新一. This particular story is about a TV show covering the arrival of an interplanetary probe (nicknamed スタービジョン) on another planet, and this phrase is said by a scientist introducing the capabilities of the probe:
スタービジョンは、銀河系へ進出した、わたしたちの眼ということができましょう。
I know this is saying something about スタービジョン extending our eyes out into the galaxy, but I don't know how to parse the second half of the sentence grammatically.
Thanks for your help!