+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-02-02
There is no such thing as being restricted to written Japanese.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-02-03
I'll keep that in mind thanks Vempele
Anyway I was wondering if anybody could help me understand this passage about the creation of a philosopher's stone:
(賢者の石の材料は生きた人間だ)
それは苦難に歓喜を戦いに勝利を暗黒に光を死者に生を約束する血のごとき紅き石
人はそれを敬意をもって呼ぶ"賢者の石"と
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - RandomQuotes - 2016-02-03
(2016-02-03, 10:41 am)Kuroro Wrote: I'll keep that in mind thanks Vempele
Anyway I was wondering if anybody could help me understand this passage about the creation of a philosopher's stone:
(賢者の石の材料は生きた人間だ)
それは苦難に歓喜を戦いに勝利を暗黒に光を死者に生を約束する血のごとき紅き石
人はそれを敬意をもって呼ぶ"賢者の石"と
I'm not sure where this is from but it seems like it should be separate clauses something like:
それは苦難に歓喜を - Delight in suffering
戦いに勝利を - Winning the fight...
暗黒に光を - Illuminating the Darkness..
死者に生を約束する - A promise of life to the dead
血のごとき紅き石 - A crimson stone, the color of blood.
人はそれを敬意をもって呼ぶ"賢者の石"と - People call it that, respect it, "the Philosopher's Stone"
But, I'm not quite sure because I literally have no clue as to the context, so I could be way off.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2016-02-03
(2016-02-03, 10:41 am)Kuroro Wrote: I'll keep that in mind thanks VempeleThe ingredients of a philosopher's stone are living humans.
Anyway I was wondering if anybody could help me understand this passage about the creation of a philosopher's stone:
(賢者の石の材料は生きた人間だ)
→A philosopher's stone is made from living humans.
Quote:それは苦難に歓喜を戦いに勝利を暗黒に光を死者に生を約束する血のごとき紅き石The をs all link to the last verb - 約束する. And the whole thing is a modifying clause for 石.
It is a stone, red as blood, which promises joy to distress, victory in battle, light to darkness, and life to the deceased.
This is a fairly common thing and not just with を.
例）私は左の道を、彼は右の道を進んでいった。
I went down the left path and he went down the right path.
例）私はキッチンに、アリスは自分の部屋に戻った。
I went back to the kitchen and Alice went back to her room.
etc etc.
Quote:人はそれを敬意をもって呼ぶ"賢者の石"とIf this one is confusing it's just because the sentence order is a bit switched around.
人はそれを敬意をもって呼ぶ"賢者の石"と
=人はそれを敬意をもって"賢者の石"と呼ぶ
=People respectfully call it a "philosopher's stone".
敬意をもって = with respect
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Kuroro - 2016-02-03
Thanks so much guys
I didn't know about that usage of を and all those を and に just looked so confusing lol
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-02-12
I've just started Tobira. I've pretty much finished the first chapter, but there's one particular sentence that is very confusing to me. For the sake of context, here's the beginning of the paragraph:
日本には昔からの名所もたくさんあります。例えば、兵庫県にある姫路城は日本で最も美しいと言われているお城で、1993年にユネスコの世界遺産に選ばれました。
And then, the dreaded sentence comes:
400年以上前の白い壁が残っていて、建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので白鷺城（白露城）とも呼ばれています。
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zx573 - 2016-02-12
(2016-02-12, 7:17 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: I've just started Tobira. I've pretty much finished the first chapter, but there's one particular sentence that is very confusing to me. For the sake of context, here's the beginning of the paragraph:
日本には昔からの名所もたくさんあります。例えば、兵庫県にある姫路城は日本で最も美しいと言われているお城で、1993年にユネスコの世界遺産に選ばれました。
And then, the dreaded sentence comes:
400年以上前の白い壁が残っていて、建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので白鷺城（白露城）とも呼ばれています。
What part of that sentence is confusing for you? I could translate it but it'd probably be better to focus on the problem area.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-02-12
I think a translation would be a great starting point. It may very well be enough to help me figure things out. If it isn't though, I'll be more specific. For now, let's just say the whole sentence is confusing...
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zx573 - 2016-02-12
Alright. Here goes my attempt at a translation then:
400年以上前の白い壁が残っていて、建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので白鷺城（白露城）とも呼ばれています。
The white wall(s?) remain standing more than 400 years later, and the structure resembles a shirasagi (= egret apparently. I'm not good at bird names in English or Japanese so I looked up the English name. Onyomi is hakuro, which is important for the next part) resting with its wings spread out, which is why (the castle) is also called Hakurojou.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FlameseeK - 2016-02-12
Oh, okay. I think I get it now, although I still have some doubts. The trickiest part of the sentence was:
建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので
広げて休んでいるように見える is a pretty weird way to put it, so I wasn't sure about it.
I still don't get why there are 3 castle names though. 姫路城, 白鷺城, and 白露城. I don't quite get why they say 白鷺城（白露城）とも呼ばれています, because if the name of the castle they're talking about is 姫路城, then why would they mention 2 other names? I don't understand why one of them is in parenthesis. Are they both alternative names? If so, wouldn't it be more natural to say 白鷺城と白露城とも呼ばれています (or か, I don't know, my production is horrible and I'm not working on it at the moment)?
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - RandomQuotes - 2016-02-12
(2016-02-12, 8:51 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: Oh, okay. I think I get it now, although I still have some doubts. The trickiest part of the sentence was:
建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので
広げて休んでいるように見える is a pretty weird way to put it, so I wasn't sure about it.
I still don't get why there are 3 castle names though. 姫路城, 白鷺城, and 白露城. I don't quite get why they say 白鷺城（白露城）とも呼ばれています, because if the name of the castle they're talking about is 姫路城, then why would they mention 2 other names? I don't understand why one of them is in parenthesis. Are they both alternative names? If so, wouldn't it be more natural to say 白鷺城と白露城とも呼ばれています (or か, I don't know, my production is horrible and I'm not working on it at the moment)?
Why do people call New York City, the Big Apple, Gotham, or the City that Never Sleeps, when its name is New York? Same reason.
If you want the actual history of where the other names stem from[courtesy of the japanese wikipedia]:
Quote:姫路城天守の置かれている「姫山」は古名を「日女路（ひめじ）の丘」と称した。
別名「白鷺城（はくろじょう）」の由来は以下のような説が挙げられている。白鷺城は「はくろじょう」の他に「しらさぎじょう」とも読まれることがあり...
- 姫路城が「鷺山」に置かれているところから。
- 白漆喰で塗られた城壁の美しさから。
- ゴイサギなど白鷺と総称される鳥が多く住んでいたから。
- 黒い壁から「烏城（うじょう）」とも呼ばれる岡山城との対比から。
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zx573 - 2016-02-12
白鷺城 and 白露城 are phonetically the same. I can't really find any explanations of why people would call it 白露城 when I tried googling (I can come up with some theories based on the kanji though), but I do find references to it even on official government websites so it's also "official" (in my opinion).
>(羽を)広げて休んでいるように見える is a pretty weird way to put it, so I wasn't sure about it.
What part about that sounds weird to you exactly? It sounds fine to me, but maybe we're parsing the sentences differently. If this makes any sense to you, this is how I break down all of the little parts of the sentence: [建物の形が[[[白鷺という白い鳥が]羽を広げて休んでいる]ように見える]]
The whole point of the second sentence is basically to explain another name for the castle. 姫路城 is the main name, and the others are nicknames pretty much. The one is in parenthesis probably because it's the same reading and probably because it's the less common of the two nicknames. Things would get really confusing if you tried to read "白鷺城と白露城とも呼ばれています" out loud and the listener has no reference for the kanji.
Also, I revised my translation a tiny bit after rereading it closer. The part you were confused about didn't change though.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - viharati - 2016-02-12
(2016-02-12, 8:51 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: 白鷺城と白露城とも呼ばれています
You might have wanted to say 白鷺城とも 白露城とも 呼ばれている.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tetsueda - 2016-02-13
Firstly, It was not that long ago that there was no standardized spelling (in any language). Secondly, it wasn't like you could just whip out your ケータイ to check how to write a word. Thirdly, odds are that way more people know 露t than 鷺.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-02-13
(2016-02-12, 8:51 pm)FlameseeK Wrote: Oh, okay. I think I get it now, although I still have some doubts. The trickiest part of the sentence was:Maybe so...?
建物の形が白鷺という白い鳥が羽を広げて休んでいるように見えるので
広げて休んでいるように見える is a pretty weird way to put it, so I wasn't sure about it.
Normally I wouldn't think a bird with outstretched wings was resting. Although resting birds -do- sometimes stretch their wings just... to stretch their wings the same way we might stretch our arms, it never struck me as a particularly iconic moment.
However, stretching your wings is an idiom in Japanese for relaxing. Of course, in English it's an idiom for testing your limits, which is not -quite- the opposite... but maybe that's why you find it strange.
Regardless, I think it's perfectly possible to make something in the image of a resting egret with outstretched wings so I don't find the sentence odd. The architectural choice maybe... but not the sentence.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2016-02-13
(2016-02-13, 2:05 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: Regardless, I think it's perfectly possible to make something in the image of a resting egret with outstretched wings so I don't find the sentence odd. The architectural choice maybe... but not the sentence.I don't think the sentence is suggesting the castle was made in the image of the bird, is it? Rather, that (after it was built) people thought it looked like a bird and so it acquired the nickname.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-02-13
(2016-02-13, 4:30 am)pm215 Wrote:(2016-02-13, 2:05 am)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: Regardless, I think it's perfectly possible to make something in the image of a resting egret with outstretched wings so I don't find the sentence odd. The architectural choice maybe... but not the sentence.I don't think the sentence is suggesting the castle was made in the image of the bird, is it? Rather, that (after it was built) people thought it looked like a bird and so it acquired the nickname.
Whether it's deliberate or not isn't specified, the sentence just says the building looks that way.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - username - 2016-02-15
Hi,
When a sentence has in it a shortened ending、in the middle, e.g.
Xが書かれており、
and then the sentence carries on, which tense is the shortened おり indicating? Is it always the present tense, or does it depend on something else?
So, - "X" is written, ...
and definitely not "X" was written
?
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zx573 - 2016-02-15
@username
I'm not 100% sure based on just a very small snippet, but Xが書かれており sounds like it might be the polite way (謙譲語) of saying いる. So, it would have the same meaning and tense as Xが書かれていて if that makes any more sense to you.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - RandomQuotes - 2016-02-15
(2016-02-15, 10:44 am)username Wrote: Hi,
When a sentence has in it a shortened ending、in the middle, e.g.
Xが書かれており、
and then the sentence carries on, which tense is the shortened おり indicating? Is it always the present tense, or does it depend on something else?
So, - "X" is written, ...
and definitely not "X" was written
?
It's a written conjunction; the tense is going to be the same as the main verb. Think of it as a written て form.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - username - 2016-02-15
Thanks! Now I just have to figure out which is the main verb. I guess it's probably the one at the end...
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-02-15
(2016-02-15, 1:15 pm)username Wrote: Thanks! Now I just have to figure out which is the main verb. I guess it's probably the one at the end...
Usually it is, yes.
There are, however, such things as sentence inversions.
( 難しいですね。 日本語は。 is a simple example of a sentence inversion. More complex inversions can have verbs in confusing places. I'm too tired to create a good specific example for you, but if you can recognize inversions it shouldn't be a problem. Sentence inversions are usually obvious because they don't make sense until you reorder them. Every once in awhile though I encounter a complex inversion that can be read for a totally different meaning without inverting and that gets confusing. Context and familiarity with common sentence patterns helps sort it out.)
It's also sometimes the verb at the end of an independent clause rather than the end of a sentence.
道が混んでいて遅くなりましたと思います ("I think the roads were crowded and he ran late") for a probably not very natural sentence example (you'd probably use one or another そうです forms for 'i heard' or 'it seems' as was appropriate, but I wrote this sentence anyway for the sake of grammar example).
In a case like this, the tense of the て-form verb takes the tense of the last verb in the quoted clause, not the last verb in the sentence.
For straightforward sentences, however, yes... the verb at the end is in fact the main verb. As a rule of thumb that's a pretty good one to be going on with.
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2016-02-17
Anyone know about the ぞ in the phrase 神のみぞ知る? Is this really just the emphatic particle ぞ? And are there other phrases that use it like this?
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tokyostyle - 2016-02-17
(2016-02-17, 10:58 pm)Tzadeck Wrote: Anyone know about the ぞ in the phrase 神のみぞ知る? Is this really just the emphatic particle ぞ?
Weblio explains the ぞ part although it's exactly as you expected.
「神だけが知っている」、つまり人間には知る由もない、といった意味合いの表現。「ぞ」は強意の表現。
RE: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2016-02-18
And here I thought it originated as a misspelling of 神の味噌汁...
