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+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sholum - 2015-06-09
sparky14 Wrote:Hey everyone, having trouble with this sentence:No idea what was going on before this sentence, but that final clause (does that count as a clause?) 三百でも利かないようでした just says "Even with three hundred it seemed to be ineffective".
よくみると、みんなそれは赤いずぼんをはいたどんぐりで、もうその数ときたら、三百でも利かないようでした
I have no idea how 利かない is being used.
Thanks.
I think. This line is just a bit...
EDIT:
That is: 利かない is the negative form of 利く which translates as "to be effective". Thus "is ineffective".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2015-06-09
sparky14 Wrote:よくみると、みんなそれは赤いずぼんをはいたどんぐりで、もうその数ときたら、三百でも利かないようでしたThis line appears to be from the children's story どんぐり山猫 in which someone finds a ton of acorns on the ground who begin to bicker about who is the greatest (and why).
I have no idea how 利かない is being used.
I figured it meant that there were a LOT (more than 300) of acorns scattered about but I couldn't explain why in English.
We can assume that the きく is referring to かず and, after a little poking around, I found this entry on chiebukuro which provides a (very) little insight on the idea of a ”きかない数.” (The Hokkaido dialect that the original poster mention also seems to be yet a different meaning of きかない).
So this is the usage of 利く that means something is possible or valid. But not really in the English sense of those words.
It's kind of odd thinking in English but it basically means something along the lines of- there was a number of acorns where 300 would not be a valid number (or would not be enough of a number) to count them. That sounds really odd so we could just say "There were more than 300 acorns."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sholum - 2015-06-09
drdunlap Wrote:So, it's saying that there are so many that 300 is an ineffective number to count them with (as if you had 300 counters, allowing you to count anything up to 300 but not more)?sparky14 Wrote:よくみると、みんなそれは赤いずぼんをはいたどんぐりで、もうその数ときたら、三百でも利かないようでしたThis line appears to be from the children's story どんぐり山猫 in which someone finds a ton of acorns on the ground who begin to bicker about who is the greatest (and why).
I have no idea how 利かない is being used.
I figured it meant that there were a LOT (more than 300) of acorns scattered about but I couldn't explain why in English.
We can assume that the きく is referring to かず and, after a little poking around, I found this entry on chiebukuro which provides a (very) little insight on the idea of a ”きかない数.” (The Hokkaido dialect that the original poster mention also seems to be yet a different meaning of きかない).
So this is the usage of 利く that means something is possible or valid. But not really in the English sense of those words.
It's kind of odd thinking in English but it basically means something along the lines of- there was a number of acorns where 300 would not be a valid number (or would not be enough of a number) to count them. That sounds really odd so we could just say "There were more than 300 acorns."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2015-06-09
4 〔(「…できかない」の形で) 足りない, それ以上である〕 do not suffice; be more than….
1 万円じゃきかないだろう. That would cost more than \10,000.
たしかに 10 万人じゃきかない. More than a hundred thousand people, I can assure you.
これ 1 万円できくと思う? 絶対きかないよね. You think \10,000 will suffice? I think it's sure to be more than that.
The clue here is that they're talking about the number of acorns (like "in terms of numbers...") and use 300でも as a kind of low ball estimate (even 300 wouldn't be enough).
This dictionary treats 有効 ･ 可能 as a separate sense of 利く. The reply in the link above conflates that sense and the 足りない sense.
If you consider the words effective, adequate, sufficient you can see how they are related.
This seems like a sentence for which even a direct translation to English is possible. Or slight paraphrases. We say this in English. In this case, I believe "There were more than X acorns" might be a it too objective/neutral however.
[edited - having difficulty trying to type on my phone]
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - john555 - 2015-06-11
Hi everyone, I'm stumped on these two sentences...if anyone can help I'd appreciate it. I'll give my attempt in square brackets...please provide corrections:
だって本当にその通りじゃないのと私は心の中で思った。
[Besides, I thought in my heart that we really didn't have this understanding].
私に求愛するなんて、まったくなんて厚かましい獣かしら私は思った。
[He's courting me...fancy that! I thought that I wondered whether he really was a brazen creature].
Something's not "computing" here...help. Thanks.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2015-06-11
I'm sure someone else will be able to give a better answer, but I would translate those as follows:
だって本当にその通りじゃないのと私は心の中で思った。
Well, then, it's not like that at all, I felt inside.
だって= a sort of indignant huh or something.
本当にその通りじゃないの= really, it's not like that at all
と私は思った= I thought
心の中で= in one's heart
私に求愛するなんて、まったくなんて厚かましい獣かしら私は思った。
How dare he ask me out, I thought. What an imprudent brute!
私に求愛するなんて= Not totally sure what 求愛 means in this context, but I figure he has just asked her on a date, or for a shag or something. But the なんて is like an exclamation of disbelief
まったくなんて= and this is just an additional exclamation for good measure
厚かましい獣かしら= what an imprudent/cheeky brute/animal
私は思った= I thought
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tetsueda - 2015-06-12
Isn't it 「その通りじゃないの？」と思う though? I.e. to think that it is the case?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Taurus - 2015-06-12
Yep, probably!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Saginaim - 2015-06-13
Something from a game. Person being addressed is in a jail with some thieves and one of them is asking you to help break out.
(Previous lines to this were, in English,
1. Are you going to escape?
2. Great! But, wouldn't it be better if you got help from the other prisoners first?)
3. しばらく待っててあげるからここにいるこそ泥に声をかけてみれば?
I think that しばらく待っててあげるから by itself is "Since I'll be waiting for you for awhile," and ここにいるこそ泥に声をかけてみれば would be "why don't you try greeting the other thieves here?", but that sounds off to me when they're together.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2015-06-13
声をかけてみる is often used to describe an attempt to recruit someone to an activity so he's saying you should go tell the other thieves about your plan and get them on board. Edit 2: In fact 声をかける is often used to mean starting a conversation about something in particular.
Edit: Also if if it's not clear the speaker is saying he'll wait for you to talk to the other thieves not just that there's time to kill.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2015-06-13
"I'll wait for a little while, so why don't you talk to the other thieves here?"
That seems to make sense to me.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Saginaim - 2015-06-14
Thanks for the clarification on 声をかけてみる, and the sentence as a whole.
I still don't understand what から is doing in this sentence, though. I keep reading it like the speaker is saying that they're (already) waiting as a reason that you should go recruit the other thieves -- but as you said, that's not really right, and it's more that they're willing to wait for you while you talk to everyone else.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2015-06-14
から does not always translate to "because" in English. The basic meaning of から is an origin or starting point. This can be time (１０時から始まる) or place (東京から行く) or a person (先生から頂いた). It can also be used with phrases, so that XからY means X is the starting point or basis of Y. Usually this means "X, therefore Y." But every so often X is just a phrase that sets up Y, without actually translating to "because" in English. This is especially common in requests -- you hear things like 来週でいいから、これを直してくれませんか。 In English we would not say "Because next week is OK, can you correct this for me?"
I think that here, you can use a conditional in English ("I'll wait for you a little while, so why don't you talk to the other thieves?") but it's not necessary.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2015-06-14
から is doing what you think it is (edit: or what Yudantaiteki said
) but you seem to be falling down at the difference between あげる and あげている. あげる = (will) give
あげている = is giving
This is a word that naturally gets left out of the English but don't forget that when you chain て verbs it's the one at the end that ties it all together. The fact that he said "waiting" instead of "wait" isn't relevant; what matters is that he said he "will give" the waiting instead of "is giving" the waiting.
Note: "XあげているからY" sounds very presumptuous and probably wouldn't be a good way to say it even if he was already waiting for another reason. It sounds as if the speaker has done X with the assumption that you'll be obligated to do Y.
Edit 2: Just for the sake of completion I feel I should say that あげている could still be used to talk about something in the future that is already decided. That's not in particularly relevant to this though.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - john555 - 2015-06-17
Hi, I came across this sentence on the cover of a magazine.
オトナは、真面目が得をする！
Does it mean "Adults gain from being serious!" ?
(Literally "As for adults, the serious ones gain/profit/benefit")?
Thanks.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - moejam - 2015-06-17
Having trouble with this question
子どもの頃というのは、「こうなりたい」という強い思いがあっても、さまざまな誘惑が押し寄せ、それにつられてしまうと思うのですが、そうした誘惑にはどのように対応していたのですか？
A rough interpretation
When you're a kid, even though you have this strong feeling of "I want to be this [when i grow up], other things catch your interest and then you get hooked onto those things. How did you deal with such desires?
Is this right?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sparky14 - 2015-06-17
Hey everyone, having trouble with this one
この曲は 雅楽 の庄篳篥でないと届かない 心境になりますね
Are they basically saying that the music doesn't reach them since it's not Japanese court music? It's a youtube comment and from what I know, court music isn't really a thing anymore so it just sounds like a weird thing to say.
Reading this again, I'm now thinking it's saying something along the lines that it gets the person in a state of mind that cannot be reached through Japanese court music. The と is throwing me off here
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jimeux - 2015-06-18
sparky14 Wrote:Hey everyone, having trouble with this oneYou can just think of「でないと」literally. "If it's not..." -> "Unless it's...". I think he's saying the song only works for him when it's played on a 庄篳篥.
この曲は 雅楽 の庄篳篥でないと届かない 心境になりますね
Are they basically saying that the music doesn't reach them since it's not Japanese court music? It's a youtube comment and from what I know, court music isn't really a thing anymore so it just sounds like a weird thing to say.
Reading this again, I'm now thinking it's saying something along the lines that it gets the person in a state of mind that cannot be reached through Japanese court music. The と is throwing me off here
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - slako - 2015-06-18
I'm still pretty confused about the furigana thing...
Sentence: 君が希望に変わってゆく
希望 (hope) has ゆめ (dream) attached to it. Which should I translate into English, dream or hope?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - RandomQuotes - 2015-06-18
If the furigana is ゆめ, then use dream but with the sense of something you want to accomplish, not something you want to see at night.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2015-06-18
@Slako: The author is using the furigana kanji combo to express both concepts (or a more subtle mixture of the two) so trying to pick one correct interpretation is kinda doomed to failure. I can't give translation advice but in terms of comprehension you need to consider what these two words mean and what is implied by both of them together in context. I've tried to show you what I mean below but bear in mind it's intended more as a demonstration of how I approach these things rather than define the sentence.
To me ゆめ is something semi-unattainable that we yearn for but never really expect to get while 希望 is a significant thing you can actually take steps to achieve. The combination of 希望 and ゆめ implies big plans and their use in the sentence tells the reader that the speaker has a lot of admiration for the achievements of the person he/she is talking to because they are succeeding in making those plans a reality.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - slako - 2015-06-18
Thanks you two for your excellent answers. Though the thing is that I'm doing a small translation project, so I have no other choice but to be black and white about it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2015-06-18
Just use "dream". There's nothing especially profound going on here, the author's just showing that he means "dream" in the sense of "hope". It has the same meaning in English and probably the context makes it clear what's going on.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sparky14 - 2015-06-20
*edit*
Nevermind!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - anotherjohn - 2015-06-21
Apropos of nothing, I just encountered a conjugation that caused a bit of a double take:
味わう causative -> 味わわせる :|
Update: just encountered it again, in a similar context too
