Saginaim Wrote:or there's no explicit grammatical connection at all and the semantic connection is entirely implicit from context.

learningkanji Wrote:A few more I don't know

ひょっどすて and ねえだべか in それはひょっどすて筋斗雲ではねえだべかっ！？

Quote:こっちさこねえでけろー

Quote:おっかねえよ

learningkanji Wrote:ひょっどすて and ねえだべか in それはひょっどすて筋斗雲ではねえだべかっ！？
こっだら in こっだらどこでなにすてるだ？
こっちさこねえでけろー
あれまやんだー
おっかねえよ

Splatted Wrote:The と in したときと　is simply the "and" kind and forms a pair with していないとき i.e. したときと、していないとき = Time when did and, time when didn't.

では is doing it's normal thing here but applied to both possibilities i.e. XとYでは　= depending on X and Y (It's really hard to think of how to translate では so don't trust me too much)

I'm not 100% sure based on your translation what you think means but here's mine:

According to Kimura it seems that women change a lot depending on whether they've done their make up or not.

yudantaiteki Wrote:代わりに is used for doing something in someone else's place (i.e. substituting for someone). It doesn't have the meaning of doing something as a favor for someone else.

Eminem2 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:代わりに is used for doing something in someone else's place (i.e. substituting for someone). It doesn't have the meaning of doing something as a favor for someone else.

While I understand the technical difference, one person substituting for another will often amount to one doing the other a favour. When only inanimate objects are involved, like your example of the pencils and the chopsticks, substitution naturally becomes the only possible meaning.

Thanks for replying!

Splatted Wrote:Substitution is always the only possible possible meaning of かわりに regardless of whether the subject is inanimate or animate and this is independent of any giving receiving words that might be used in the sentence. There is no implication that the person who was replaced wanted to give up their role and it's entirely possible to do something for someone without taking their place in any way.

Splatted Wrote:I think you may have been mislead by the use of "for" in the original translation and my subsequent statement that it should be "on behalf of", but that was not intended to be a translation of 代わりに. There is no value judgement implicit in the phrase, so although it may be clear based on what is taking place, there is no redundancy when combining 代わりに with words such as もらう or あげる. E.g.
田中さんの代わりに私が店の後片付けをしてあげる - I will do the favour of cleaning up the store in place of Tanaka-san
Tanaka-san is the one being substituted and the one receiving the favour.

Splatted Wrote: 田中さんの代わりに私が残業代をもらう - In place of Tanaka-san I will receive overtime pay.
Tanaka-san is being substituted but this time it is the speaker who is better off.

Splatted Wrote:Can you see how もらう and あげる are filling a different role from かわり in both these sentences?

Splatted Wrote:I think I see the problem now. Giving and receiving words are often used to make explicit the implicit assumptions regarding who owes who for what just took place, regardless of how obvious they may be. You can leave them out and be understood, but they serve to inform the listener not just when you receive or offer a favour, but also that you have noticed and acknowledge this situation. (Think please and thank you)

E.g. In Japanese you might say 田中さんが鉛筆を貸した but it's politer to say 田中さんが鉛筆を貸してくれた。
Just like how in English you might say "Tanaka-san lent me a pencil", but it's politer to say "Tanaka-san was kind enough to lend me a pencil."

The exact details of what is required and when are well beyond my level of Japanese but I hope this helps a bit. I've　no idea when, why or if it's polite to tell someone you're doing them a favour.