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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2014-02-25

And ちゃ is a contraction of ては.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-25

Vempele Wrote:And ちゃ is a contraction of ては.
Right; this is different from the てしまう contraction of ちゃう.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2014-02-25

Stansfield123 Wrote:
Inny Jan Wrote:下り電車 - train going from the city center
上り電車 - train going towards the city center (downtown) (I guess this one is counter-intuitive...)
So this is Tokyo-only, or is it used in any city?
Seems to mainly be a Tokyo thing in my experience. I've never heard people say it about Kyoto or Osaka.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - myxoma - 2014-02-25

fzort Wrote:"kaesanee" is the "tough"/slangy version of "kaesanai", which is the negative form of the verb "kaesu" = "to let someone return". You are probably familiar with the verb "kaeru" = "to return"; "kaesu" is the transitive version of that verb.

"ikashicha" is slang for "ikashite". "Ikasu", in this context, means "to let live" (it's the transitive version of "ikiru" = "to live").

(Sorry for the romaji; in the office without a Japanese IME.)

Edit: I wrote originally that "ikashicha" was "ikashite shimau"; that was a mistake. Apologies.
Vempele Wrote:And ちゃ is a contraction of ては.
right, i see how ちゃ＝　slang substitute of ては　and じゃ　= slang substitute of では now.
thanks guys Big Grin. so i guess this is not really directly covered in tae kim huh

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - andikaze - 2014-02-25

じゃ can also be other things, like だと, they sometimes just slur stuff together like there's no tomorrow Smile When jotting down spoken lines one sometimes has to figure out what the original Japanese would be if "spoken correctly". Hiroshi Abe is a great example for that, I listened to him over and over to fix my "male Japanese speakers are incomprehensible" problem Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2014-02-25

myxoma Wrote:so i guess this is not really directly covered in tae kim huh
He doesn't have a page on contractions as such, but he does mention most of the main ones in the articles. You just got unlucky that the first time you saw ちゃ it wasn't followed by いけない/ならない/だめ.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-25

Yeah, even when you know the non-contracted form it's still tough to see what's going on here; it's literally something like "I won't let you go home, at least not alive".

Quote:they sometimes just slur stuff together like there's no tomorrow
While this is true, ては -> ちゃ is a standard contraction that people would do even when speaking clearly.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - andikaze - 2014-02-25

Depends. People speak very clearly in very formal settings, less so in more casual ones. I can say ~なきゃならないです when I work at a rather relaxed place, but people will not greet you with しゃませえ in a chic restaurant and people wont say つれえたします before hanging up the phone when speaking with customers.

In normal, every day conversations, these parts are always slurred tho, and many more, so it's best to get used to them, because you'll encounter them every day, countless times.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Inny Jan - 2014-02-25

Stansfield123 Wrote:So this is Tokyo-only, or is it used in any city?
回答No.2 in http://okwave.jp/qa/q484216.html seems to confirm what Tzadek wrote above.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Stansfield123 - 2014-02-26

Inny Jan Wrote:
Stansfield123 Wrote:So this is Tokyo-only, or is it used in any city?
回答No.2 in http://okwave.jp/qa/q484216.html seems to confirm what Tzadek wrote above.
Thanks, it does indeed. Very helpful.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - afterglowefx - 2014-02-27

I've been seeing polite volitional (～ましょう) used as a suggestion a lot lately. Recent example right out of Core:

夏は水分を十分に補いましょう。
Make sure you take enough liquids in the summer.

Is it really as basic as volitional can be used both in the normal sense (which I take as "Let's ___") and to offer what usually seem to be advisory suggestions or light commands? Anything tricky to be aware of?

I tried poking around Tae Kim's guide but didn't see anything.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2014-02-27

You've got it right but it's a pretty restricted usage. The main context where it's used is when you have an authority figure giving advice to a group of people -- like in an instruction book, a how-to manual, or especially when a local government puts out signs and brochures about how to recycle and how you should unplug electric appliances that you're not using. To me it sounds a bit weird and presumptuous to use it outside of that context. There's a bit of a sense of "we should all do this," not just "you should do this," I think.

Here is a good explanation in the context of subway posters! http://gakuu.com/please-do-it-subway-posters/

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - afterglowefx - 2014-02-27

Fillanzea Wrote:You've got it right but it's a pretty restricted usage. The main context where it's used is when you have an authority figure giving advice to a group of people -- like in an instruction book, a how-to manual, or especially when a local government puts out signs and brochures about how to recycle and how you should unplug electric appliances that you're not using. To me it sounds a bit weird and presumptuous to use it outside of that context. There's a bit of a sense of "we should all do this," not just "you should do this," I think.

Here is a good explanation in the context of subway posters! http://gakuu.com/please-do-it-subway-posters/
Ah, that makes perfect sense, thanks for explaining it in detail. In the context of advice from a position of authority, it makes sense (I guess!) using the volitional as in "Let's all ___ together!" ...it's just so quaintly, typically, perfectly Japanese!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - headphone_child - 2014-03-02

I'm having some trouble with a phase containing 成せる業 (なせるわざ). According to this, I guess it literally means "an act only X can do" or "behavior particular to X". So for example, 神の成せる業 could mean an "act of god" ("something only god is capable of"). That makes sense to me (but please correct me if I'm wrong here).

But I'm unsure of how this sentence line from a manga works:

なるほど．．．強い志の成せる業か．．．

That line is a response to someone that declares he will never lose to any swordsman. Any ideas on 強い志の成せる業? Is it something like: "behavior which is unique to those with a great ambition?"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vempele - 2014-03-03

努力のなせる業　the fruit(s) of sb's efforts

From Green Goddess. I've also seen なせる業 a couple times in the wild, and it always seemed to get used a bit oddly...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2014-03-03

In classical Japanese 為せる is not a potential, it's the equivalent of なしている, so this shouldn't mean "Only X can do" -- however, it may be that it's been misinterpreted as a potential and is now used in that way. I don't know the details of this idiom, but without looking at that link you posted I would have read your sentence as "A deed/action borne out of a strong will".

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - afterglowefx - 2014-03-03

What's the easiest way to express that something was done accidentally? I know しまう can be used to express unintended circumstances, and many verbs have forms that express that something was done by chance, but what if I just want to say, "Sorry, that was an accident!" after, say, knocking down a huge stack of Uno cards on a student's head? Thanks!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2014-03-03

The Aのなせるわざ thing is a little awkward but certainly not the potential. Like yudantaiteki said, なせる is an old word that shows something has been done. Kind of like the English present-perfect tense. Daijirin defines it as "おこなった。引き起こした。" with the example sentences of 「自然のなせるわざ」「群集心理のなせるわざ」

「Aのなせるわざ」is basically an idiom meaning "It is precisely because of A that ~~ came about." So in the above two examples..
It's precisely because of his strong will that he won't lose. (His not-losing is a result of his strong will.)
It's precisely because of X's efforts that ~~ came about. (~~ is the fruit of X's labor).
Googling "*のなせるわざ” brings out quite a few more examples.

「米国の安倍批判は嫉妬心のなせるわざ」
The USA criticizes Abe because they are jealous.
「若さのなせるわざです。(それから１５年。私もずいぶん大人になりました。)」
It was because I was young. (But now, 15 years later, I've become quite the adult.)
「自殺は無知のなせるわざ」
Suicide is the result of ignorance.


afterglowefx Wrote:What's the easiest way to express that something was done accidentally? I know しまう can be used to express unintended circumstances, and many verbs have forms that express that something was done by chance, but what if I just want to say, "Sorry, that was an accident!" after, say, knocking down a huge stack of Uno cards on a student's head? Thanks!
You can say something like "わざとじゃないよ！” or "そのつもりはなかった” for things that happened accidentally. But I think the most generally Japanese response in this case would be to just apologize and ask if they're OK. That should get across the point that you didn't do it on purpose. If they accuse you of purposefully dumping cards on their head you can pull out the "わざとじゃないよ！"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - afterglowefx - 2014-03-03

drdunlap Wrote:You can say something like "わざとじゃないよ！” or "そのつもりはなかった” for things that happened accidentally. But I think the most generally Japanese response in this case would be to just apologize and ask if they're OK. That should get across the point that you didn't do it on purpose. If they accuse you of purposefully dumping cards on their head you can pull out the "わざとじゃないよ！"
Awesome, I love it when things are both literal and involve vocabulary I already know, thanks!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - headphone_child - 2014-03-04

Thanks Vemplete, yudantaiteki, and drdunlap. The example sentences are especially helpful. I definitely read なせる as potential at first, so I'll be mentally substituting なしている into that idiom from now on.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Chronopolis - 2014-03-05

無論、ボクは本物の宮殿など見たことがない
全てはテレビなどで見た光景だ

I was wondering about the second line. Because of how the first line goes, my first thought is
"It is a spectacle of which all that I had seen of before was from TV and the like"
but then I wondered whether the 全て could refer to "the whole palace that he's looking at", instead of "all the palaces he had seen before".
"The whole spectacle is just as I had seen on TV and the like."

Which one of these interpretations is correct and/or more likely?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2014-03-05

Chronopolis Wrote:無論、ボクは本物の宮殿など見たことがない
全てはテレビなどで見た光景だ

I was wondering about the second line. Because of how the first line goes, my first thought is
"It is a spectacle of which all that I had seen of before was from TV and the like"
but then I wondered whether the 全て could refer to "the whole palace that he's looking at", instead of "all the palaces he had seen before".
"The whole spectacle is just as I had seen on TV and the like."

Which one of these interpretations is correct and/or more likely?
The best interpretation is "all the palaces he'd seen before were on TV."
It's strengthening the fact that he's never seen a palace in real life.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2014-03-05

Are you sure about that? My first thought was "It was all the scenery I had seen on TV." (i.e. just like the scenery on TV)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Inny Jan - 2014-03-05

(never mind)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2014-03-05

yudantaiteki Wrote:Are you sure about that? My first thought was "It was all the scenery I had seen on TV." (i.e. just like the scenery on TV)
Hmm.. depending on context I'm willing to believe that this is the correct interpretation.
But with just these two sentences, my interpretation is most likely correct.
Just to make sure I'm not crazy I asked my Japanese friend here with me and she said the same thing. Maybe with more context it would be different!
More context! More context! Tongue