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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dtcamero - 2013-09-23
This is a rather basic sounding question about a rather common word... But I have never found a satisfying definition or way of understanding 一応 (ichiou).
It just seems so multivalent... and once I think I understand it it pops up somewhere else totally different and unexpected.
Is there by chance someone who is able to concisely communicate the meaning(s) involved?
many thanks,
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - headphone_child - 2013-09-23
I quote an earlier post of mine regarding 一応. Unfortunately it's not very concise:
----------
A common English translation of 一応 is "for now", which does work sometimes, but definitely not always.
Let's look at the dictionary entry first: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/12328/m0u/
First there's noun which means "one time" or go "one time". I don't see those used too often.
Then the adverbs. The first meaning is "not thoroughly, but generally or roughly done, outlined or approximately done". As in これで一応でき上がりだ to say something is roughly done or outlined.
The second meaning is "just in case". the same as 念のため, as in 一応見直しましょう.
...and that's all the dictionary has. This is probably unsatisfactory though, because it seems like people use it more broadly. What finally made it click for me was this person's lang-8 post.
There are a lot of good comments on that post. They generally say that people can also use it as an expression of humility. Here's the example from one of them:
A：このケーキおいしいね。
B：ありがとう、一応それ私の手作りなんだ！
That 一応 is probably the one you're looking for (it's the one I didn't fully understand for a long time). The commenter would interpret that 一応 as（いやいや、十分といえない、まだまだです）. So A calls the cake delicious, and while B takes credit for making it, he doesn't want to boast about it, so he adds 一応.
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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kaizer - 2013-09-25
This seems to be a pretty basic, common phrase, but I was having a little trouble with the "の言う通り" e.g. 田中さんの言う通り、 あなたの言う通り。
I understand the phrase as a whole ("as [somebody] says.") But I'm unsure on the role that the の particle is playing here.
Thanks a lot.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dtcamero - 2013-09-25
headphone_child Wrote:...That was super helpful, thanks very much!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-25
kaizer Wrote:田中さんの言う通り、 あなたの言う通り。の can replace が sometimes, especially in dependent clauses buried inside larger sentences. This looks like such a case. Nobody would ever normally say 田中さんが言うとおり because the の is part of set expression. But you compare it to 田中さんが言うこと、田中さんが言った話 perhaps you can see the similarity. Those phrases only rarely replace が with の、 usually when buried in a complicated sentence.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kaizer - 2013-09-25
Thanks for clearing that up! I thought it may have been substituting for が. I just got so used to the possessive の being used with people names etc.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-09-25
BTW, I don't think が言う (or 言った)とおり is at all strange; google has a lot of hits for it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ryanjmack - 2013-09-27
I did the section in tae kim's essential [Defining and Describing] not too long ago where there are words like どういう and という. How exactly are these words read?
どういう
Example sentence
大学に行かないって、どういう意味なの？
Is this pronounced something like どおおう?
という
Example sentence
これは、なんという魚ですか。
would this be pronounced like とおう?
any help would be appreciated thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-09-27
I don't know of any case where い is read お. Just pronounce it like the kana -- although usually いう is pronounced ゆう in speech.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ryanjmack - 2013-09-27
Ah okay that would make sense. That's what it sounds like in the audio but the spelling was throwing me off. Thanks yudantaiteki
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tykkylumi - 2013-09-27
What would you guys say is the most normal (in regular polite speech) way to ask where someone is from? I'm writing out a lesson plan for tutoring basic Japanese and realised there are so many ways to ask, but I'm not sure which one sounds the most natural.
出身はどこですか ・ どちらから来ましたか etc etc.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2013-09-27
There are plenty of ways how to say this.
出身はどこですか。 Is great.
どちらから来ましたか。 Is not problematic either. However, どちらですか is shorter and suffices.
ご出身は？ Is common, too.
If you know what country they are from but want to know specifically, you can say
Country＋はどちらですか。 This has another interpretation, but in context speakers know what you are asking.
On the phone, you may hear (失礼ですが、)どちら様ですか。 But, in this case the expected response is not so much where you're calling from but your identity.
As for as natural, you've already given us two completely fine and natural expressions. I would chose accordingly to the mood and circumstance.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - trumpet - 2013-10-05
i have a question about this sentence and in particular the verb conjugation:
マリサ先生には完っ璧な踊り見てもらわにゃならんべしな！
for "見てもらわにゃならん" construction of the verb is confusing me as is the にゃ. my guess is, based on context, is it translates to "we must show her" or "we have to let her see" but i am confused cause it seems like the にゃ replaces so much and i cannot put my finger on what the normal verb would look like and how the にゃ works grammatically.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2013-10-05
Looks like an equivalent of the Standard Japanese contraction …なければ → …なきゃ.
Osaka ben?
見てもらわなければならない
もらわなければ is もらわねば → もらわにゃ
ならない is ならぬ → ならん
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2013-10-05
Thora Wrote:Looks like an equivalent of the Standard Japanese contraction …なければ → …なきゃ.It seems to be used here and there and is perhaps a leftover from older Japanese-- http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1361932248
Osaka ben?
見てもらわなければならない
もらわなければ is もらわねば → もらわにゃ
ならない is ならぬ → ならん
In Kansai (Osaka at least) one might say 見てもらわなあかん・見てもらわな・見てもらわんと etc. (見てもらわなあきまへん!?) to mean the same thing.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - patriconia - 2013-10-05
trumpet Wrote:i have a question about this sentence and in particular the verb conjugation:If it is based on older Japanese, my guess would be it's a contraction of -ねば form, which is now -なければ. -ば attaches to the what is called the izenkei (已然形) form, and -なけれ is the izenkei form of -ない. In older Japanese, where -ぬ and -ず were used to indicate negative form, -ね was the izenkei form. In reality, -ぬ, contracted as -ん is actually the first negative auxiliary verbs probably most learner of Japanese will learn, since it is on -ません.
マリサ先生には完っ璧な踊り見てもらわにゃならんべしな！
for "見てもらわにゃならん" construction of the verb is confusing me as is the にゃ. my guess is, based on context, is it translates to "we must show her" or "we have to let her see" but i am confused cause it seems like the にゃ replaces so much and i cannot put my finger on what the normal verb would look like and how the にゃ works grammatically.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2013-10-05
Just to clarify: Many Kansai-ben forms are closer to older Japanese - with various and contractions and embellishments. (I find it interesting that it would have been the standard language if Edo hadn't become the capital.) The Kansaiben pattern I wrote above is the same as the literary Japanese explanation Patricio gave.
There are of course many ways to say the same thing. I don't have any sense for why someone might use one over the other. (見てもらわなあきまへん always sounded like Hawaiian to me.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2013-10-05
Thora Wrote:Just to clarify: Many Kansai-ben forms are closer to older Japanese - with various and contractions and embellishments. (I find it interesting that it would have been the standard language if Edo hadn't become the capital.) The Kansaiben pattern I wrote above is the same as the literary Japanese explanation Patricio gave.I can only speak (contemporary) Osaka-ben these days. I'm not up on the history of the language... (´・ω・｀)
And while this is true, the above-mentioned form certainly isn't the Kansai norm. Maybe it's older from.. somewhere.. else?
The ending (べしな) of the example "見てもらわにゃならんべしな” makes me think it's possibly from the North-East.Thora Wrote:There are of course many ways to say the same thing. I don't have any sense for why someone might use one over the other. (見てもらわなあきまへん always sounded like Hawaiian to me.)Now that you mention it... it kinda does. Haha. I only use あきまへん when I'm joking around but I have seen it on signs here and there. It's probably older. I use either 〜なあかん or 〜んと!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - youasuki - 2013-10-07
From 進撃の巨人:
「勝手に戦争ごっこに興じてろってな！！」
(戦争ごっこに興じる to enjoy playing war)
I know ろ there is the imperative of いる and that って is just quoting but I'm still fuzzy about it and I am not sure about the last な at the end? Some help anyone?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2013-10-08
youasuki Wrote:From 進撃の巨人:I had to find the script for context to better understand the situation but it's conveniently located here without having to go find a manga raw.
「勝手に戦争ごっこに興じてろってな！！」
(戦争ごっこに興じる to enjoy playing war)
I know ろ there is the imperative of いる and that って is just quoting but I'm still fuzzy about it and I am not sure about the last な at the end? Some help anyone?
Seems like the soldier's asking for confirmation from the people around him. He can't figure out why anyone would want to go outside the walls since it's safe inside but they can go ahead and have fun pretending to be at war- he's not gonna stop 'em.
""Go have fun pretending to be at war (I'm not gonna stop you)!" Am I right?"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - youasuki - 2013-10-08
@drdunlap Sorry for the extra work. What is this な here?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - drdunlap - 2013-10-08
youasuki Wrote:@drdunlap Sorry for the extra work. What is this な here?That's what I translated as "Am I right?" -- it's basically him just asking for confirmation from the people around him who are probably thinking the same thing (minus the main character).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - youasuki - 2013-10-08
Ah, ok got that! Now what about the ろって?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-10-08
I believe it actually means 'The Survey Corps (調査兵団) is just going out there and (doing that thing called) playing at war, (aren't they?)'
It's all part of one larger expression,
Quote:ハンネスの言うとおりだ、まったく…壁の外にでる調査兵団って連中の気が知れねぇ…The って quickly implies ということ but wouldn't normally be translated into 'the thing called'.
勝手に戦争ごっこに興じてろってな
The な has been covered, but I'll just add that it's just a masculine version of ね.
I believe that ろ instead of る is just the character's accent, so I read it as short for いる making the continuous action "興じている".
I might often think that ろ was short for ろう, but I don't believe that you can have a volitional ている expression.
I can see how you might think it's command form but I don't believe you can have a command form of a of a continuous-action expression either, although you can have a command form of a continuous-state expression (i.e., 黙っていろ) so... maybe. In any case, it seems weird to have a command not at the end of the sentence, I wouldn't expect a って or a sentence final particle after a command form.
Also, 進撃の巨人 is a very popular manga. If you give the volume & page number, you'll be giving all the context in the world, and you'll likely get a quicker and more accurate answer.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-10-08
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I believe that ろ instead of る is just the character's accent, so I read it as short for いる making the continuous action "興じている".I'm pretty sure you can do command form of continuous actions. It works out to "Do this and keep doing it" or something like that. I've never seen an accent or dialect where ている was ていろ.
I might often think that ろ was short for ろう, but I don't believe that you can have a volitional ている expression.
I can see how you might think it's command form but I don't believe you can have a command form of a of a continuous-action expression either, although you can have a command form of a continuous-state expression (i.e., 黙っていろ) so... maybe. In any case, it seems weird to have a command not at the end of the sentence, I wouldn't expect a って or a sentence final particle after a command form.