+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-04-22
no 付く ismore popular but probably the kana is popular than 付く though
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Growl - 2013-04-22
One more thing, every time I speak in the polite register I don't know if I should use full polite forms within connecting sentences, for example あるけれど or ありますけれど, なので or ですので, etc.
And, what is the difference between やめる and やめとく
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-22
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:no 付く ismore popular but probably the kana is popular than 付く though付く is the most popular kanji for the word つく, but I don't believe it is when つく means something similar to 'say.' (A more common example with つく: you would never write やっと東京駅に着いた as やっと東京駅に付いた) Both Progressive J->E and 広辞苑 give the primary kanji as 吐く for that meaning.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-04-22
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:no 付く ismore popular but probably the kana is popular than 付く though付く as a verb is certainly more popular, but in the phrase うそをつく in particular, I believe that 付く is barely used at all. 付く isn't being shown as being used with 嘘 or うそ in the dictionaries I have access to (excepting EDICT), and a google search for 嘘を付 shows only one or two hits with the kanji, and fills the results pages instead with kana 嘘をつく results, while a search for 嘘を吐 finds plenty of results with the kanji.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-22
Growl Wrote:And, what is the difference between やめる and やめとくWe just talked about this a few pages back in this thread, haha.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Growl - 2013-04-22
Really? But I can't find itが
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-22
Growl Wrote:Really? But I can't find itがReply #6086 and 6087. Though, it might still be confusing even upon reading that.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Growl - 2013-04-22
Lol, I actually responded to that myself. If @yuda or @magamo could help it would be nice.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-04-23
やめとく means "stop (and leave it how it is)" (this is a secondary meaning of ておく but is more likely in this case than "stop in preparation for the future"). This isn't something we explicitly express in English so it won't be reflected in a simple translation.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Growl - 2013-04-23
Why don't we express it in English?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-04-23
Tzadeck Wrote:umm i don't get why you're giving that example. やっと東京駅に付いた is just plain wrong choice of kanji. well you know it means something but obviously it doesn't make any sense. but for uso wo tsuku either kanji is fine and correct. and for 嘘を吐く it can be read as haku.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:no 付く ismore popular but probably the kana is popular than 付く though付く is the most popular kanji for the word つく, but I don't believe it is when つく means something similar to 'say.' (A more common example with つく: you would never write やっと東京駅に着いた as やっと東京駅に付いた) Both Progressive J->E and 広辞苑 give the primary kanji as 吐く for that meaning.
the reason you got so little hits with google is because you didn't search the whole phrase try
"”嘘を付く”" ”嘘を吐く”
the latter gets like 5x more hits but the former still gets 3 million so either is fine. obviously kana is the most popular.
”嘘を付” still gets 1.5 million
or maybe you didn't use quotes?
http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/%E5%98%98%E3%82%92%E4%BB%98%E3%81%8F
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - headphone_child - 2013-04-23
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:嘘を付く isn't listed in the JJ dictionary here. Interesting that it is listed in the EJJE dictionary. According to a random nobody, 付く is wrong in that instance; 吐く is correct but because the reading is irregular, つく is preferred. Guy doesn't provide any sources though. It's possible that 嘘を付く is just a common mistake, but who knows...Tzadeck Wrote:umm i don't get why you're giving that example. やっと東京駅に付いた is just plain wrong choice of kanji. well you know it means something but obviously it doesn't make any sense. but for uso wo tsuku either kanji is fine and correct. and for 嘘を吐く it can be read as haku.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:no 付く ismore popular but probably the kana is popular than 付く though付く is the most popular kanji for the word つく, but I don't believe it is when つく means something similar to 'say.' (A more common example with つく: you would never write やっと東京駅に着いた as やっと東京駅に付いた) Both Progressive J->E and 広辞苑 give the primary kanji as 吐く for that meaning.
the reason you got so little hits with google is because you didn't search the whole phrase try
"”嘘を付く”" ”嘘を吐く”
the latter gets like 5x more hits but the former still gets 3 million so either is fine. obviously kana is the most popular.
”嘘を付” still gets 1.5 million
or maybe you didn't use quotes?
http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/%E5%98%98%E3%82%92%E4%BB%98%E3%81%8F
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-04-23
I think that technically 吐く is right but because that's such an uncommon word (I had never heard of it) people just use 付く because that's the most common kanji for the various uses of つく.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-24
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:umm i don't get why you're giving that example. やっと東京駅に付いた is just plain wrong choice of kanji.I don't think that my example was that far fetched. The two professionally-made dictionaries I looked in have the 吐く in 嘘を吐く in a completely different entry than 付く, and the meaning of say/tell/lie is not listed at all under the entry for 付く. Which is the same way the dictionaries treat 着く--that is, they're both being treated as basically a completely different word (in Japanese it's much hard to say what is a separate word than English). What's more, the basic meanings you usually think of for each of those kanji "to be attached," "to arrive" "to tell (a lie)" are all completely different.
If you see people use 付く in that situation it's simply a mistake because it is most often written in kana. I've never seen professionally published writing use 付く. Of course, kanji use is pretty liberal, which is also why it's not 100% impossible that you might see it or even something like 東京駅に付く, since especially in fiction authors often use non-standard kanji as a kind of literary technique.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - uisukii - 2013-04-24
Tzadeck Wrote:東京駅に付くSorry if this is a stupid question in light of the previous conversation, but would you be able to explain the intended difference in meaning (if it was used by an author purposefully) between the quoted expression and, say: 東京駅に着く?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-24
uisukii Wrote:Well, I don't think 東京駅に付く is an example that's particularly likely to occur, but authors use pretty funky kanji sometimes. I've seen authors use kanji that are basically never used for a given word, presumably because they want to express the meaning of that kanji as well as the usual meaning of the word.Tzadeck Wrote:東京駅に付くSorry if this is a stupid question in light of the previous conversation, but would you be able to explain the intended difference in meaning (if it was used by an author purposefully) between the quoted expression and, say: 東京駅に着く?
In a similar vein, if there was a situation where an author wanted to give a meaning of both 'be attached/cling to' and 'arrive', it might be possible. Maybe a bum arriving at Tokyo station to resume his homeless lifestyle of living in and around the station? 東京駅に付いた. Haha, again, not the most likely example. It's hard to come up with a good one for these two kanji.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-04-24
Usually authors' "unusual" kanji have precedent, either being obsolete or archaic forms, or a group of common 熟字訓 that aren't on the Joyo list (like 身体 read as からだ). It's much rarer than people think for authors to use kanji that have no precedent whatsoever (I'm not counting the sci-fi/fantasy work method of made-up katakana words over kanji.)
(I tried to find some examples in Soseki and Akutagawa but I looked through several stories and couldn't find any examples of unusual kanji usage -- maybe I just didn't look at the right stories.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-24
Hmm, to be fair, I have no idea how common this is. It could be quite rare, and I could be mistaken about some of the examples of it I've seen. I believe I've seen Murakami do it (maybe in Norwegian Wood?) and I've seen it in a couple of manga. On at least one occassion I asked my Japanese tutor about it and she agreed.
Certainly, my two most recent books--I read 博士の愛した数式 and am reading 西の魔女が死んだ--didn't do it at all.
At any rate, usually I can tell if I come across an obsolete or archaic kanji because I have 漢語林, a kanji dictionary, on my electronic dictionary that usually covers stuff like that.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2013-04-24
I've only ever seen the sci-fi katakana technique, use of obsolete kanji readings, and the manga technique where you print 彼奴 but have furigana of the person's name, etc.
Someone once mentioned Natsume Soseki's use of 這入る as はいる in 夢十夜 (probably because it's in that "read real Japanese" book):
こう考えた時、自分の手はまた思わず布団（ふとん）の下へ這入（はい）った。
The problem with this kind of example is that it's very hard to say why an author that wrote over 100 years ago did that. The etymology of はいる is 這う in RY (はい) + 入（い）る. いる used to be used for what we say はいる today, but at some point the はいいる contracted to はいる and replaced いる in most cases except for set phrases. So writing the word as 這入る is not some bizarre, totally out of the blue technique.
But I don't know if Soseki consciously used 這入る to call up some connotation with 這う, or whether the origin of the word was still fresh enough in 1908 that Soseki didn't see anything odd about using those kanji. People who like kanji tend to automatically assume the former because they like this idea of authors "playing" with kanji, but I'm not so sure. I think to really be able to say for certain you would have to look at other contemporary works and see how the word is written in them. I would certainly say if a 2013 novel used 這入る there would be some intention behind it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2013-04-24
Hmm, okay, if I have time when I'm home I'll see if I can find an example to see what you think. I got rid of some old books and a lot of my manga since I'm moving in the summer, but I still have the Murakami at least.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2013-04-25
Can someone explain the difference between 勢力 and 権力? Both mean "power/influence" and I cannot distinguish them.
According to Daijirin:
せい-りょく [1] 【勢力】
他を押さえつける力｡いきおいとちから｡威力｡｢―を伸ばす｣｢―をふるう｣
けん-りょく [1] 【権力】
他人を支配し従わせる力｡特に国家や政府が国民に対して持っている強制力｡｢―を失う｣｢―の座にすわる｣
The latter one has a meaning of "making the people obey politically" as far as I understand.. can the former be used in a broader sense then??
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - uisukii - 2013-04-25
How I understand the distinction in application, using two English two sentences as examples:
勢力
"With its constant presence, this cold current from Antarctica has an overwhelming influence on the southern regions of Tasmania's coastal fisheries."
権力
"Although it has been decades since the last conflict between these two nations, the high military presence along the landlocked borders still holds strong influence over the political affairs of each nation."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2013-04-25
勢力 - Rooted in brute force...especially military or imperialistic power.
権力 - Rooted in legal authority.
勢力 should be used for both of those sentences. IMO
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - uisukii - 2013-04-25
Clears up my understanding at least. Thank you.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2013-04-25
政治権力 is political "force".. I cannot quite draw the line between the two, still.