The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Printable Version

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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Printable Version

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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-12-12

Thora Wrote:皆に　is a dative subject, not an indirect object, because みえる　is a stative verb.

This was confusing. According to my search, they are the same thing.

subject in the dative case = indirect object.

For more information see here:

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/what-is-dative-case/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-12

I think you're just confusing yourself by drawing linguistic terms from all over the place and trying to shoehorn them into Japanese grammar, while at the same time being dismissive of people who have a background in linguistics.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-12-12

Nope, I'm actually trying to understand this that I found extremely interesting. Now, for the record, I'm not being dismissive, but why you think so beats me.

Also, I understand E and J grammar are not the same… and I have politely remarked that I well realize so the 2 or 3 times you have blurted it out.

So, it very well seems that dative subject = indirect object, but I'm still waiting for @thora or anyone else to help further clarify this.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-12-12

If you want to make a lot of posts about a specific grammar concept though, you might want to make a different thread. This thread is more about getting clarification on a specific word or phrase you came across.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-12-12

I'm on my way to the airport, so I have throw this out quickly here. I'll try to fix it later if it makes no sense.

Basically, try to imagine that you can analyze sentences in different ways. It's like putting 3 transparent overlays of a sentence.

Layer 1: Syntax (grammatical structure): subject, object, indirect object
Layer 2: Semantic role (meaning): agent, possessor, undergoer, patient, recipient, etc (different approach use different terms for describing these, but they essential just describe what actual role that element plays)
Layer 3: Case: nominative, objective, dative

Sometimes they line up nicely. This is the common line up:

彼　が　　　　　　　　　　　　りんご　を　　　　　食べる
Subject Object
Agent Patient
Nominative case Objective case

In Japanese, the nominative case is が and it usually marks the subject. The subject is often an agent in active sentences. But not always.

For eg, think about passive sentences. が　still marks the subject, but the subject is now an undergoer, not an agent. The agent gets a に.

And in stative predicate sentences, the nominative case does mark the subject (see honorific test) but now semantically it's an experiencer/possessor of the ability, etc. What's so interesting about stative sentences is that the nominative case （が）　also marks the grammatical object. It's often called a 'nominative object' to distinguish it from regular を marked 'objective objects'. (Linguists argue about how to explain these types of sentences. Most consider it a nominative object, from what I've read, because of various subject and object tests and some crazy theoretical goobledygook.)

The　dative case に　can mark different grammatical elements. So an indirect object can be dative case.　And a subject can be dative case, too. In other words, が　subject is a 'nominative subject'. に　subject is a 'dative subject'.

Not every に　marked element is dative case, though. It might be just acting like a preposition describing location, etc. Occasionally, it's not completely clear whether a particular にmarked element is dative case (a required argument of a verb) or just an adjunct (additional info about location, direction, etc.

Many languages have case, but case doesn't work the same in each language. So, as ydtt said, you need to look at how case works in Japanese. (A few linguist even argue that Japanese doesn't have case and we're just trying to graft foreign language onto it.) I find explanations using case more common and useful.

You don't need to get into all the terminology, but since you were specially asking about it, I mentioned 'dative subject' (not just dative case) so you could look it up. Maybe search for "dative subject in Japanese" if you want relevant info.

I do think level appropriate explanations (jargon is not necessary) of what the elements are doing semantically and syntactically really can help people understand how to use particles with things like passive, stative, potential, causative. Just try to think of what category of verb it is, what elements that kind of verb needs, what their role is, and how they're marked grammatically. It changes depending on the category of verb.
hope that helps gotta run

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-12-12

Tzadeck Wrote:If you want to make a lot of posts about a specific grammar concept though, you might want to make a different thread. This thread is more about getting clarification on a specific word or phrase you came across.

That's true. Delta, if you want to move your Q to a separate thread, I'll move my 2 posts there later.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - CloverJoker - 2012-12-13

まぁ、面倒見はいいよな。佳織にも、こんなによくしてくれるし。
Can anyone explain the し at the end?

昏睡させようとしているのかわかったもんじゃなかった。
and
こんな可愛い義妹が淹れてくれたコーヒーが飲めるんだもんな

And for this, Im not sure what もん is there for.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-13

This is the し that you see in grammar books as giving multiple options leading to some conclusion. Recently it's used more and more as a final particle like this that has a feeling like から, also implying other reasons, perhaps.

もん should be in DBJ as ものだ, if you have that.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tuliaoth - 2012-12-13

Tzadeck Wrote:
tuliaoth Wrote:自分の利益のために仲間をぎせいにする人間は、助かる危険も助からなくなります。

Could someone please explain or translate the part after the comma?
A man who sells out his friends for his own benefit will not be saved from what he otherwise would be saved from.

助かる危険=a danger that he will be saved from
も=even (emphasis)
助からなくなります= will end up not being saved

So, something like:
will end up not being saved even from a danger that he would (otherwise have been) saved from.

Thank you. Somehow I kept interpreting that 助かる危険 was "the danger that he will be saved" (without "from"), so I thought "how's that a danger then?", probably because I somehow expected a preposition to link both ideas as in English.

I kept looking and found that 助かる is passive and takes an を object where in English we'd use a preposition, i.e. 危ないところを助かる (be saved from danger), which was definitely what was throwing me off. Thanks again!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-13

助かる is intransitive, not passive. Also usually you use が with 助かる; google does bring up a relatively small number of hits for を助かる but it asks "Did you mean を助ける？" and some of the hits seem suspect.

危ないところを　I think is a phrase like 忙しいところを which doesn't really link directly to transitive verbs as a direct object.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2012-12-14

So the title of the next Miyazaki film is 風立ちぬ.

Can anyone tell me what the ぬ is doing there? I know that ぬ can be attached to negative stems, but that doesn't seem to be what's going on here.

The poster also has this sentence: いざ生きめやも

Is this classical Japanese? I have no idea what's going on with the めやも. I know from searching that it's a quote from a translation of French poem Le Cimetiere Marin, but I'd like to know what's going on with the grammar.

Thanks!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-14

ぬ here is a classical suffix showing completion or realization (so the wind has blown or begun to blown)

The second one is tougher. やも is a classical particle sequence that either shows a question, or more frequently acts as 反語 -- meaning that it technically asks a question but implies that the answer is "no". This is similar to in English if you hear in a speech something like "Can we really continue to live under this tyranny?"

いきめ should be the verb 生く plus the suffix む, showing volition or possibility, in the 已然形. I don't understand the grammar here; some Internet sites say the whole thing should mean "Let's live! (but we actually can't)". I've seen an English translation of the French line as "The wind's rising; we have to try to live!"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2012-12-14

Awesome, thanks for the explanation!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2012-12-15

Don't know if it's accurate but I just found this concerning いざ生きめやも:

もともとこれはフランスの詩人バレリーの「風が起きた。生きねばならない」という意味の原詩を堀辰雄が文語調に翻訳したものです。
　それが、国語学者の大野晋さんによれば、「生きめやも」だと「生きようか、いや断じて生きない、死のう」の意味になるというのです。
source: http://blog.livedoor.jp/up_down_go_go/archives/5133928.html

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-12-15

Revisiting an old sentence I posted a while ago (see below), I think I finally figured it out, but please let me know what you think.

誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを。
Everyone, (should try to get, attempt/endeavor to find/attain/obtain) the happiness that can be lived/had ordinarily/normally/anyway…

In more idiomatic English: "Everyone should try to be happy or (as happy as can be)."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - undead_saif - 2012-12-15

undead_saif Wrote:"アリス：その人が買うんじゃなかったの？
It might seem trivial to you, but it's still confusing to me!
Could anyone care to explain please?

I mistook the "んじゃない" as the negative conjugation of のだ, and then realized that it's の and じゃない attached to the noun-like sentence. Right?

Edit: reviewing it again I still find it confusing because んじゃない　is only supposed to be the negative conjugation of のだ. Sad

Sad

@Babyrat Thanks!

In Core 2K this sentence: 家に遊びに来てください。
is translated as: Please come over to my house.
Isn't it supposed to mean "Please come over to my house to play"?
Are the Core sentences inaccurately translated, or is the used translation more appropriate?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - awaken - 2012-12-15

undead_saif Wrote:In Core 2K this sentence: 家に遊びに来てください。
is translated as: Please come over to my house.
Isn't it supposed to mean "Please come over to my house to play"?
Are the Core sentences inaccurately translated, or is the used translation more appropriate?

遊びに来る: to come and stay, to drop in, to visit

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2012-12-15

Ash_S Wrote:Don't know if it's accurate but I just found this concerning いざ生きめやも:

もともとこれはフランスの詩人バレリーの「風が起きた。生きねばならない」という意味の原詩を堀辰雄が文語調に翻訳したものです。
　それが、国語学者の大野晋さんによれば、「生きめやも」だと「生きようか、いや断じて生きない、死のう」の意味になるというのです。
source: http://blog.livedoor.jp/up_down_go_go/archives/5133928.html

Interesting, thanks for that Ash.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - undead_saif - 2012-12-15

Oh I see, it becomes a totally different verb. Thanks.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-15

遊びに来る does literally mean "come over to play" but the phrase is used for any visit that isn't for serious or business purposes. It doesn't have the childish feeling of the English sentence.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2012-12-15

I think the verb 遊ぶ in general just doesn't have the childish feeling that "play" has in English. Like you can say to your friends 遊ぼう and it's more like a "let's hang out/go do something fun".

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-12-15

I think of 遊ぶ as an activity that is rather the opposite of work/study (e.g. play, relax).

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tuliaoth - 2012-12-15

yudantaiteki Wrote:助かる is intransitive, not passive. Also usually you use が with 助かる; google does bring up a relatively small number of hits for を助かる but it asks "Did you mean を助ける？" and some of the hits seem suspect.

危ないところを　I think is a phrase like 忙しいところを which doesn't really link directly to transitive verbs as a direct object.

I see, thank you for the clarification.

So 助けられる (from 助ける) is passive (the "to be saved" I was thinking about), but 助かる is intransitive (and means the same as the "to be saved" I was thinking about).

So both mean the same, both use が, but they are separate verbs with separate grammatical categories, right?

And another quick question. In the original sentence...

自分の利益のために仲間をぎせいにする人間は、助かる危険も助からなくなります。

If I understand correctly, we can have a redundant 人間が between the comma and 助かる, but if then I want to apply this が rule to the rest of the fragment, I get lost.

Is the emphatic も placed where another が could go? Because that would mean 危険が助からなくなります, which I can only read as "a danger will end up not being saved," rather than Tzadeck's more reasonable translation.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-12-15

I honestly don't know -- I can't find this phrase outside of this fable so I'm not sure how to understand the grammar, although the meaning is clear.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-12-15

助かる "to be saved from" but behaves intransitively, so imagine there was a verb like:
v. to getsave:
I was so lucky I getsaved from that accident.
The boy's life getsaved after the operation.

Here is how I break it:

自分の利益のために
for his own benefit/sake

仲間をぎせいにする人間は、
man that abandons/gives up on his friends

助かる危険も
a danger that he (gets / will get) saved from also/anyway/as well

助からなくなります。
(will) become(s) not getting saved

助からなく
behaves adverbially, modifiying なります, meaning not getting saved (or not getsaving in my made up verb).

And the whole thing means what Tzadeck said. That's all there is to it. も is the same も that means "even/also/as well/anyway/too" and just like in English it can add emphasis, but there is no such thing as a particular emphatic も particle or anything like that.