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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-11-09

sikieiki Wrote:
delta Wrote:Is the following also correct?
あの会社と契約が成立されました。
I dont believe it is correct.

If you use あの会社と with the と meaning with/together, then following it must be a sentence describing what they did together or の which makes it a noun phrase.
For what its worth, I dont think its worth trying to figure out the details of the grammar. It should just come naturally and incorrect grammar will just feel wrong.
Yeah, my initial reaction to this was that あの会社と契約を結びました would be okay, but that あの会社と契約が成立されました is strange. But I deleted it because I'm not really sure.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-09

delta Wrote:Is the following also correct?
あの会社と契約が成立されました。
No. が成立されました is odd because you usually don't have passives of intransitive verbs. 成立しました　is intransitive and expects a noun that is going to be 成立'd. In the original sentence case, the noun is あの会社との契約. In your sentence, the noun is just 契約. あの会社と is an auxiliary phrase that wants a subject. If you wanted to get rid of the の, you have to use a transitive verb there.

(I don't agree with the previous poster that you shouldn't try to understand the grammar. Sometimes you can hit a wall where you just have to accept something as idiomatic, but this is not one of those cases.)

EDIT: I think the translation given is fine for the meaning -- it's hard to show the grammar in English because you have to use a passive verb ("the contract was completed") to avoid sounding completely bizarre. I usually like in these kinds of cases to give both a meaning and literal translation -- i.e. "We completed the contract with the other company (lit. "The contract with the other company completed.") As I was just saying earlier in this thread, it's very common to use intransitive verbs in places where we would use transitives in English, or passives.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Stian - 2012-11-09

sikieiki Wrote:Have a question on the -sou ending
If I am talking about something painful and the person listening wants to say 'that sounds painful' or something like that, what would it be? 痛そう or 痛いそう?

I believe it to be the former but my friend believes the latter

Aさん 田中さんが上田さんに足を踏まれた。。。
Bさん 痛そう
痛そう: appearing to be painful
痛いそう indicates something like "I've heard that it's painful."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Inny Jan - 2012-11-09

yudantaiteki Wrote:As I was just saying earlier in this thread
Well, you would be able to point at that post in this thread, wouldn't you? (Sorry, just kidding Smile and it's Theseus who comes to my mind now...)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thistime - 2012-11-09

sikieiki Wrote:Have a question on the -sou ending
If I am talking about something painful and the person listening wants to say 'that sounds painful' or something like that, what would it be? 痛そう or 痛いそう?

I believe it to be the former but my friend believes the latter

Aさん 田中さんが上田さんに足を踏まれた。。。
Bさん 痛そう
It would be 痛そう.　痛いそう　is ungrammatical.

"い" adj. always drop the いwhen you add the　そう

高そう
難しそう
おいしそう

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-09

It's not ungrammatical, it just has a different meaning as Stian noted above.

Verb:
行きそう - It seems that X will go
行くそう - I heard that X will go

Adjective:
高そう - It looks/seems expensive
高いそう - I heard that it's expensive

na-adj
元気そう - He seems well/energetic
元気だそう - I heard that he's well/energetic

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thistime - 2012-11-09

I stand corrected. Thank you.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sikieiki - 2012-11-09

I know the difference between 痛そう and　痛いそう, however my friend was pointing out that since I was telling a story about someone who got hurt, the information to them is not first hand - they did not observe it, thus the Xいそう form should be used.

I think the problem stems from grammar explanations of the Xいそう form to mean second hand information and Xそう to mean something seems like/appears like/looks like describing situations mostly to do with first hand information. If you think about it that way, I guess it could be a little confusing.

Why the Xいそう pattern is wrong to me becomes apparent when reading example sentences instead.

彼は料理がうまいそうだ。 It is said that she is a good cook.
彼女の話では彼は来ないそうだ。 He is not coming, according to her.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-09

sikieiki Wrote:I know the difference between 痛そう and　痛いそう, however my friend was pointing out that since I was telling a story about someone who got hurt, the information to them is not first hand - they did not observe it, thus the Xいそう form should be used.
Ah-hah, I see -- yeah, that is a good question. My reasoning is that 痛そう is used here because you're still judging the 痛い yourself based on what the person is telling you. 痛いそう would mean that you got the information "It hurts" and are not making a judgment yourself.

I think that if you say 痛いそう in that situation it's like you're saying "I hear that's painful" rather than "That seems/sounds painful." It would probably sound odd in that context because it's almost like you've never had your foot stepped on and you're not even really sure you can imagine what it's like, but people have told you it's painful.

This is verging into "we need a NS" territory, but I feel like as a guy, I could say 痛いそう about menstrual pain or childbirth.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-10

yudantaiteki Wrote:If you wanted to get rid of the の, you have to use a transitive verb there.
But isn't する a transitive verb? I thought 成立しました was already in the transitive and I was making it intransitive with されました.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-10

delta Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:If you wanted to get rid of the の, you have to use a transitive verb there.
But isn't する a transitive verb?
Not always. It can be either depending on how it's used. There are a lot of intransitive Noun + する.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-10

@yuda How do I know that 成立する is intransitive?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thistime - 2012-11-10

This is what the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar says after I checked these two points

清水さんはお酒を飲まないそうです
I heard Mr. Shimizu doesn't drink alcohol
日本の肉はとても高いそうだ
I hear that meat in Japan is very expensive
利子さんは英語がとても上手だそうです
I hear that Toshiko speaks very good English
キングさんは英語の先生だそうだ
I heard that Mr. King is a teacher of English

Souda expresses hearsay. That is, this pattern is used when the speaker conveys information obtained from some information source without altering it.

この家は強い風が吹いたらたおれそうだ
It looks like this house will fall down when there's a strong wind
あのステーキはおいしそうだった
That steak looked delicious
このあたりは静かそうだ
This neighborhood looks quiet

Souda expresses the speaker's conjecture based on visual information. Thus, this expression can be used only when the speaker directly observes something.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Inny Jan - 2012-11-10

To read and see how conjectures and hearsay work in Japanese I would refer you to DoBJG pp. 550-552.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-10

I'm not sure that it's entirely true that そう has to be *visual* experience, but maybe I'm wrong -- even if that is true, 痛いそう is still not an option in the above conversation. You would have to use 痛いみたい or something like that. 痛いそう means that you heard it hurts, *not* that you heard some information and are guessing it hurts based on that.

Quote:How do I know that 成立する is intransitive?
Dictionary or experience. If you see all the examples are Xが成立する then that's a good indication it's intransitive. If I look up all the examples on my electronic dictionary I get 内閣が成立した, 合意が成立する, ３法案が成立した, 委員会が成立する, and 交渉が成立する. These are all the things being completed, not the people completing them.

My J->E has the example アリバイを成立させる, so if you want it to mean "set up" you have to use causative.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-10

So basically you infer it from how it's used in the examples, etc., but no dictionary will explicitly tell you that the noun 成立+する is intransitive.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-10

delta Wrote:So basically you infer it from how it's used in the examples, etc., but no dictionary will explicitly tell you that the noun 成立+する is intransitive.
None that I have. My dictionaries mark verbs as T/I but they don't seem to do it with Ｘする verbs. Maybe there's some dictionary out there that does?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tykkylumi - 2012-11-13

Does anyone know how you would say "stream" as in "streaming videos"?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-11-13

Tykkylumi Wrote:Does anyone know how you would say "stream" as in "streaming videos"?
ストリーミング

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tykkylumi - 2012-11-13

Tzadeck Wrote:
Tykkylumi Wrote:Does anyone know how you would say "stream" as in "streaming videos"?
ストリーミング

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0
Thank you, I don't know why I didn't use wikipedia...

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-14

From Sagawa's (courier company) AA (automated attendant):

お手元のご希望時間のダイヤル番号を５番から７番を入力してください。

The general meaning is clear but I can't figure out what お手元 means exactly. My guess is that it refers to pressing the button corresponding to the timeframe that is more handy to me, but then I am not sure.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-14

Usually 手元 means something close to your hand or something you're holding (cf. 足元, around your feet). I'm not sure how that fits here, though.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-11-15

delta Wrote:The general meaning is clear but I can't figure out what お手元 means exactly. My guess is that it refers to pressing the button corresponding to the timeframe that is more handy to me, but then I am not sure.
Since it's a courier service, it probably refers to the desired delivery period (when the recipient takes possession), rather than keeping something at hand.

Xが お手元に 届く　　　is used for customers' receipt of X: "reach your hands", I suppose.
(I assume the お　is general politeness and not limited to receipt by the actual customer since people send stuff to others too.)

Xを お手元に 用意する　　is having X ready or handy

If you search for words/phrases in a good JE dictionary or ALC, you can often find helpful example sentences with translations.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-15

You can press buttons from 1 to 7 to specify the time period you want your item re-delivered. My guess is that 手元 refers to pressing the button that is more handy to me, but maybe I am wrong.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-11-15

I've never seen 手元 used to mean "handy"; I'm pretty sure it means "in your hand" or "on your end". Is this audio? You may have some transcription problems because the sentence shouldn't have two を particles in it.

EDIT: Looking at some examples on alc and the Internet, I think お手元のご希望時間 means "the time you would like to have the package in your hands." In other words, what Thora said.