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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Stian - 2012-11-01
What does this sentence mean?
「それを恨むはならん」
I'm mostly thinking about the ならん part.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-01
I believe it is just like. それを恨んではならない。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Stian - 2012-11-01
It seems to give the same results in the dictionary... could you give a rough translation of the sentece?
Is it something like: "Feeling bitter about it won't help."?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - lloydvincent - 2012-11-01
ならん is a reduction of ならない
恨んではならない: (you) mustn't allow (yourself) to hold a grudge/become bitter
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Stian - 2012-11-01
ありがとうございます！
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-03
1. 川はこの地点で一番幅が広い。The river is widest at this point.
*I don't understand how 一番幅が広い works, I've seen 一番 + adjective (e.g., 一番高い) but not something like this.
2. 誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを。
*Is this a case of ellipsis? Where/what is the verb that takes 幸せ as a direct object?
Number (1) is from the dictionary and (2) is from an ad on the train, but I have forgotten what it was about.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-11-03
delta Wrote:1. 川はこの地点で一番幅が広い。The river is widest at this point.
*I don't understand how 一番幅が広い works, I've seen 一番 + adjective (e.g., 一番高い) but not something like this.
Ive seen this structure before but don't know a lot about it.
2. 誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを。
*Is this a case of ellipsis? Where/what is the verb that takes 幸せ as a direct object?
wo at the end is basically a stylistic choice. I remember puzzling this for hours. 暮らせる is the verb. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090613144632AAvR62U So no, I don't think its elispsis. Googling stuff like "wo at the end of a sentence in Japanese" often yields good results.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-11-03
delta Wrote:1. 川はこの地点で一番幅が広い。The river is widest at this point.If it would be 幅広い would it be easier to understand? It's basically 一番 + adjective (一番 + ひろい) but you get noun in the middle which is just an addition.
*I don't understand how 一番幅が広い works, I've seen 一番 + adjective (e.g., 一番高い) but not something like this.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-03
@Rayath I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
@Honkua
Isn't 暮らせる the potential form of 暮らす? If so, how can you use を in there?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-03
1. It's after an adjectival phrase. That broadens the definition to fit this usage. 一番 is an adverb, so although it almost always is next to the phrase it modifies, it could be elsewhere in theory. If you break the statement into phrase ichiban is the adverbial phrase and "haba ga hiroi" is the adjectival phrase.
2. Yes, it's a stylistic choice of chiasmus.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - lloydvincent - 2012-11-04
delta Wrote:1. 川はこの地点で一番幅が広い。The river is widest at this point.I think you're just not mentally parsing the phrase correctly. [一番]+[幅が広い]
*I don't understand how 一番幅が広い works, I've seen 一番 + adjective (e.g., 一番高い) but not something like this.
Don't be confused by the が.
delta Wrote:2. 誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを。暮らせる is subordinated under 幸せ in this case, so grammatically it is a case of ellipsis but there is no specific verb which has been omitted. The sentence expects you to infer the writers intent, which in this case is "should have" or something like that.
*Is this a case of ellipsis? Where/what is the verb that takes 幸せ as a direct object?
"The joy of being able to live normally, for everyone."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-04
Going up on what lloyd just said, that's why the term chiasmus should be used to describe this phenomenon rather than ellipsis, which would infer that something is deleted. Chiasmus in any language that is found in is simply the abnormal word ordering for a certain effect, and like in English, this has a rather poetic and elegant effect. For that reason, you see lyrics with this rhetorical device all of the time.
Ya, it should be particle ga that affirms the structure of the phrase. If it were wa I would be like, what?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-04
So: 一番広い = 一番幅が広い = the widest?
@imabi My problem is more basic. 幸せを暮らせる is incorrect right? If it is so and this is not ellipsis then where is the verb that takes 幸せ as a DO that was not omitted (since is not ellipsis).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-04
What's wrong with 幸せを暮らせる? It's a perfectly reasonable phrase.
Yes, 幅が広い ＝ 広い
Any attributive phrase in a language has recursive rules to make them as long as the speaker wants. This is something I've taken from linguistics.
暮らせる ＝ To be able to live.
I googled it to see if I was crazy, and there are plenty of results with Something something を暮らせる.
At this point I would google and see the kinds of words used so that you can get a feel at what expressions are commonly made with this combination. Maybe change up the particles and see if you get a lot of results.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - lloydvincent - 2012-11-04
I don't know, 幸せを暮らせる sounds strange to me. Should be 幸せに暮らせる, nay?
All the google results I got for を暮らせる were using time or location-related words (like 日々、日常、老後)
I'm pretty sure 暮らせる is modifying 幸せ, and not just switching the word order around.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-04
I guess you're right. It sounded wrong to be at first, but who knows. It doesn't sound right; that's for sure. So, with that note I would say that the rest of the context would make things more clear as to what kind of rhetorical device, which one is being used regardless of interpretation, is being used here.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-04
If you google 幸せを暮らせる you get this thread…
@imabi What does 幸せを暮らせる mean?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-04
Hypothetically speaking, it would be like "to be able to live happiness". However, I've already conceded that it's messed up. I guess I didn't think it straight the first time. I'm only human. That would have to be 幸せな生活で暮らせる。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-04
Is 暮らせる also a contraction of 暮らさせる?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - imabi - 2012-11-04
No.
暮らさせる ＝ The causative.
I'm really screwing up today. ：（
It should be the potential. Sorry for any confusion.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-04
Exactly, 暮らせる is the potential, so 幸せを暮らせる is wrong, でしょう？
On the other hand 幸せが暮らせる would be fine I guess, but there is no が in the example. So can anybody explain "誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを"?
1. If this is ellipsis then what is the missing verb taking 幸せを?
2. If this is not ellipsis and the verb modifying 幸せ is 暮らせる then how could that be if verbs in the potential form don't take を. Unless 暮らせる is a conventional contraction of 暮らさせる the causative, but @imabi already said it isn't.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - lloydvincent - 2012-11-04
As I said, this is like an ellipsis because grammatically there should be a verb and there isn't, but on the other hand there's not a specific verb that has been omitted. The reader is just expected to understand without the verb.
If I had to put something in... 誰もが、普通に暮らせる幸せを （手に入れたらいいですね。）
手に入れる = to gain/achieve/get
Edit: 暮らせる is subordinated under 幸せ, so を／が doesn't have anything to do with the relationship of those words. [普通に暮らせる] [幸せ] : "the happiness of being able to live normally"
Edit 2: 幸せが暮らせる sounds exceedingly strange. I'm as sure as I can be as a non-native speaker that that's bad Japanese.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - delta - 2012-11-04
Ahhh ok, so it is ellipsis, well, that explains it now, thank you.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-11-04
Just to state this in an easier way:
It's very common to end a wish for something good with just を.
So, 幸せを means 'I wish for (your happiness).'
You see this a lot with stock phrases, such as during new years: 良いお年を
The verb varies. Could be 幸せをお祈りします, 'I wish for your happiness.’
良いお年を is sometimes used in full with a verb, 良いお年をお迎えください, 'Please welcome a good year.'
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - lloydvincent - 2012-11-04
Doesn't always mean good things: 目には目を "an eye for an eye"
But yeah, it's used a lot when wishing/praying for good things to happen.
何卒お許しを！ m(_ _)m
Lloyd Vincentです。以後、お見知りおきを。
...and so on.