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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-16
地面 the ground; 〖(空に対する)地〗the earth.
Does に対する mean "as opposed to" here?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-16
Another but different question, is んだよ used as a command in the following quote:
覚えてくんだよ
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-16
1. Yes
2. Yes
The のだ command form is a little bit like English "You WILL sit down!" Basically it just makes a statement about the way things will be and the implication is that it's a command.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-17
This one about the infamous のだ／のです and more.
For example here:
そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。
Why not そのため皮膚が伸びます?. Well, I am not sure but here is my take:
そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。
And for that reason the skin grows/expands.
(That the skin grows/expands is already known, the focus is in that it grows for the reason already explained そのため).
そのため皮膚が伸びます。
And for that reason the skin will grow/expand.
(The focus is on what will happen, possibly new information).
Lately I have been noticing that whenever the う-form of verbs is used, it's usually talking about the future, or rather that's what it roughly translates to in English. Which finally led me to realise that Japanese has indeed no past, present or future. It has states of being which can be used to talk about the past and present/future as well as other things. This is more or less a follow up to the 'completed/non-completed' paradigm revelation I had that I read in the (free to download) first chapter of JSL.
I am going to use 食べる and (来る for the tricky points 3 and 4) to explain my understanding of the differences between 〜る、〜た、〜ている、〜ていた. Please examine and criticise:
**1** 食べた --> to eat (finished state)
It's not the past tense of 'eat' but rather the state when the action is finished/completed (since eating is an ongoing process, having started the process counts just as well) which can be used conditionally, to make a suggestion, to talk about the past, the present, future, etc.
〜食べたら (if/when the state is finished). For example this can be used to talk about the future (after [when] eating is finished).
〜食べたほうがいい (the state (when eating is finished) is better). Right, in English you would rather say "It's better if you eat" which obviously means "It's better if you start the process of eating".
〜食べたことがある (have you (ever) eaten ~ (before)?) The state (finished eating) + to be (unfinished being/existing). Does the state exists?. And what about ことがあった?, well 食べた remains the state of completed eating and あった would add the state of completed being, for example ウベアイスクリームというのを食べたことがあったが、味は忘れてしまった, something like I had eaten the Ube ice-cream but have already forgotten what it was like.
**2** 食べる --> to eat (unfinished state)
It's not the present/future tense of 'eat' but rather the state when the action is still unfinished or rather not yet started/completed. Also I hear this form is used in manuals to give instructions, which if so, would make total sense.
**3** 食べている --> to eat + to be (unfinished state)
The unfinished state of being + the verb before. 食べている is not "is eating" but an impossible form in English equivalent to "is being eaten" that is not the passive voice, because "to eat" is transitive. (You eat the dog or the dog eats you but neither of you eat without an object).
With 来る however, きている is not "coming" but "[╳ is] has come" (or the much more meaningful "is here" but less helpful if you are linguistically inclined and can't be a normal person and let yourself take in the language) which does work because "to come" is intransitive (whereas "to eat" is transitive), also since Japanese has only un-/finished states "coming" is the same as "will come" (because the subject has not come yet). Of course you can say is on the way to mean is currently coming like 今くる途中だ which illustrates that "coming" and "will come" is only "will come" in Japanese.
**4** 食べていた --> to eat + to be (finished state)
The finished state of being + the verb before. Like above is not "was eating" but another impossible construction equivalent to "was being eaten" that is not the passive voice.
With 来る, just like above, きていた is "[╳ was] had come" or "was here".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Forthem - 2012-08-17
I like to think of '食べている' , i.e. te-form of a verb + いる 's meaning as having one of two possible interpretations; either the progressive form use, 'He is eating', or the perfect tense use of 'He has eaten.' Then depending on the context I pick which I think is a better interpretation, 現在進行形 or 現在完了形. In English i guess it would be 'is + ing' or 'has/have + ing'. It's never let me down so far.
te-form + いた (past of いる) can be thought of the same way. i.e. 'was + ing' or 'had + ing'. I think this tends to work regardless of whether or not the verb is transitive or intransitive as well.
Basically, I'm trying to say that they aren't impossible constructions in English I guess lol. Japanese simply uses the same grammatical form to express the perfect tense of verbs as well as the progressive form too.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-17
turvy Wrote:This one about the infamous のだ／のです and more.Answering questions about のだ without the context is impossible; taken completely out of context, either 伸びます or 伸びるのです might be OK. Your explanation is plausible.
For example here:
そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。
Why not そのため皮膚が伸びます?. Well, I am not sure but here is my take:
Quote:そのため皮膚が伸びるのです。Either one can be "grows" or "will grow"; it just depends on the context.
And for that reason the skin grows/expands.
(That the skin grows/expands is already known, the focus is in that it grows for the reason already explained そのため).
そのため皮膚が伸びます。
And for that reason the skin will grow/expand.
(The focus is on what will happen, possibly new information).
Quote:With 来る however, きている is not "coming" but "[╳ is] has come" (or the much more meaningful "is here" but less helpful if you are linguistically inclined and can't be a normal person and let yourself take in the language) which does work because "to come" is intransitive (whereas "to eat" is transitive), also since Japanese has only un-/finished states "coming" is the same as "will come" (because the subject has not come yet). Of course you can say is on the way to mean is currently coming like 今くる途中だ which illustrates that "coming" and "will come" is only "will come" in Japanese.This is the only part I'm not sure about in the rest of your post but I need to think about it more before I respond.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-17
One more thing, about the direct passive and how I think I have found a way to make peace with the following type of sentences (actually the same example which I posted perhaps a month ago):
{past participle}
酒は米から作られる
Sake {is/will be made} from rice.
>>> Did you know that sake is made from rice?
>>> Q: What is sake made from? A: Is made from rice.
>>> Just tomorrow sake will be made from rice and corn to celebrate the International Corn's day.
酒は米から作られた
Sake {was made} from rice.
>>> Disclaimer: Sake was made from oats in order to compare it with regular rice sake, we, eat at your own risk.
酒は米から作られている
Sake is {being made} from rice.
>>> Sake is [now/nowadays/currently] made from premium rice imported from New Zealand in our brewery.
酒は米から作られていた
Sake was {being made / had been made} from rice.
>>> Sake used to be made /had been made/ from barley until it was noted that using rice was cheaper.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-08-18
Can somebody tell me how to interpret the とに in here? Is a mistype? I cannot make sense of it, at least.
『13ウォーリアーズ』（原題: The 13th Warrior）は、1999年のアメリカ映画。アラブ人旅行者アフマド・イブン・ファドラーンの旅行記と古英語の叙事詩『ベオウルフ』とに想を得てマイケル・クライトンが書いた小説『北人伝説』が原作である。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-08-18
[AとBと]に... Sometimes both items are marked with と
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ergerg - 2012-08-18
Here's a sentence from one of the innocent books (死神の精度) which I can't quite parse. It probably won't make much sense unless you've read the story, but roughly the story is from the point of view of a Shinigami, so 私たち at the beginning refer to him and his fellow Shinigami. It happens that the Shinigami are crazy about music, and at off times in their "jobs" hang out in CD shops using the test-listening headphones:
私たちは下手をすると、仕事の合間にミュージックを楽しむのではなくて、ミュージックを堪能する合間に仕事をするようなところがあるので、情報にも精通している
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tnall - 2012-08-19
Hey everyone,
I'm transcribing the FUN episode of Spongebob (http://members.outpost10f.com/~lindax/spongebob/transcripts/spongebob%20transcript%20season%201/spongebob%20transcript%20FUN.html) and I couldn't quite make out a few lines. Could you help please?
EDIT: Thanks for the help yudantaiteki ^_^
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-19
The 5th one is 悪巧み（わるだくみ）.
6th: 百年早いぜ
5th to last, maybe ぞ?
4th from last, きもさぞかし I think.
3rd from last - 歌だって歌ったのに
Last one your guess is right, I think.
The others I can't hear well enough to say.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - apirx - 2012-08-20
Hey, can someone help me translate a T-shirt I bought?
front: 負けず嫌い
back: 欲しがりません 勝つまでは！！
I thought I knew what it meant, but quite a few Japanese people laughed about the T-shirt and now I'm not sure anymore.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-08-20
apirx Wrote:Hey, can someone help me translate a T-shirt I bought?Hmm, that's a little weird but I'd take a guess and say:
front: 負けず嫌い
back: 欲しがりません 勝つまでは！！
I thought I knew what it meant, but quite a few Japanese people laughed about the T-shirt and now I'm not sure anymore.
front: I hate not losing.
back: I don't want it. Not until I win.
ergerg Wrote:Here's a sentence from one of the innocent books (死神の精度) which I can't quite parse. It probably won't make much sense unless you've read the story, but roughly the story is from the point of view of a Shinigami, so 私たち at the beginning refer to him and his fellow Shinigami. It happens that the Shinigami are crazy about music, and at off times in their "jobs" hang out in CD shops using the test-listening headphones:I never feel completely confident without some context to confirm my understanding, but I'll tell you what I think it means. This is a horribly written translation, but whatever.
私たちは下手をすると、仕事の合間にミュージックを楽しむのではなくて、ミュージックを堪能する合間に仕事をするようなところがあるので、情報にも精通している
If we're not careful, rather than listening to music during breaks in our work we have a tendency to work during breaks from immersing ourselves in music, so we are quite knowledgeable about it.
I don't know if this is what was giving you trouble, but for me, the rikai-chan entry for 堪能 wasn't sufficient in this case. If you look at the J-J Yahoo entry it's quite clear though:
２ 深くその道に通じていること。また、そのような人や、そのさま。たんのう。
P.s. I remember having difficulty with that sentence when I was reading 死神の精度.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-08-20
Splatted Wrote:I would go with the same back interpretation, but 負けず嫌い is "never content 「to be (the) second best [unless one is the best]", so although you don't really lose if you get 2nd or 3rd place for example, you still feel like a loser, you always want to be the 1st.apirx Wrote:Hey, can someone help me translate a T-shirt I bought?Hmm, that's a little weird but I'd take a guess and say:
front: 負けず嫌い
back: 欲しがりません 勝つまでは！！
I thought I knew what it meant, but quite a few Japanese people laughed about the T-shirt and now I'm not sure anymore.
front: I hate not losing.
back: I don't want it. Not until I win.
edit:
One more thing. As 欲しがる is used instead of 欲しい, it's pointing to a third person. So I would translate it as:
front: never content unless he is the best.
back: He doesn't want it. Not until he wins.
(talking about a person that wears the shirt)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-08-20
@rayath: That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for correcting me.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-20
Rayath Wrote:One more thing. As 欲しがる is used instead of 欲しい, it's pointing to a third person.がる does not have to refer to a third person. It can also mean behaving or acting in a certain way; I think here that's what it means -- it's sort of like "I won't be greedy".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-08-20
Recently I'm hearing ～させていただきます a lot and I was wondering what it means. I searched the internet and found the following:
「送付させていただきます。」
「退職させていただきます。」
「提案させていただきます。」
「同行させていただきます。」
を正確な下から目線の表現に変えるとどうなるか、例として下記のとおりご紹介してみます。
「送付いたします。」
「退職させていただきたく、宜しくお願いいたします。」
「ご提案いたします。」
「ご同行いたします。」
Meaning, e.g. 送付いたします＝送付させていただきます ? Is this understanding correct?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-08-20
Yes, it's a roundabout way of saying you're going to do something -- literally "I will have you give me the favor of letting me do X." I think it's more common in question form, to say "Can I do X?" politely. (i.e. 拝見させていただけませんか = 見ていい？)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-08-20
yudantaiteki Wrote:Ah OK... I've seen it exclusively with a third person, but googled it a little now and I guess there are some uses with 1st person...Rayath Wrote:One more thing. As 欲しがる is used instead of 欲しい, it's pointing to a third person.がる does not have to refer to a third person. It can also mean behaving or acting in a certain way; I think here that's what it means -- it's sort of like "I won't be greedy".
Thanks for pointing that out.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-08-20
@yudantaiteki: I'm familiar with いただけませんか, however, させていただく seems to be something very different that is very commonly used in every speech in Japan as it seems to me.. according to the internet it is commonly used in a wrong way...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-08-20
I used to hear it a lot when my classmates would give presentations: 何々について発表させていただきます. Just like もらう, you're not actually asking permission -- you're going to do it whether they like it or not -- but you're sort of thanking the listener in advance for indulging you.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ergerg - 2012-08-20
Splatted Wrote:If we're not careful, rather than listening to music during breaks in our work we have a tendency to work during breaks from immersing ourselves in music, so we are quite knowledgeable about it.Thanks very much! It makes sense now, I hadn't gotten the bit about contrasting breaks in the work from breaks in the music, and then the last part was completely opaque to me.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-08-21
Tori-kun Wrote:させていただく seems to be something very different that is very commonly used in every speech in Japan as it seems to me.. according to the internet it is commonly used in a wrong way...させていただく is a fairly everyday phrase, though it's quite polite. The 発表 example is extremely common. People waiting on you use it a lot too. There's not a lot of chances to say it to you in a combini or something, but if a store is wrapping something for you, or you're dealing with a more complex sale (a cell phone contract, for example), させていただく is very commonly used when they tell you they are going to do something.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-23
Right off ADOJP:
雨が降り出さんばかりの空模様だ
The sky looks like it's about to rain.
I just need to know what is さん in 降り出さん?