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+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - JimmySeal - 2012-07-25
I don't know enough to give much information on how their nuance is different, but just going on feeling, the first one seems a bit less likely. People reading the book is an ongoing phenomenon, so I think -ている would be more suitable.
Did you see these two particular sentences somewhere, turvy?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-07-25
Well, you know, this is the passive and ている that are always giving me trouble even after I think I have figured them out. I actually bumped into these sentences while skimming over one of the Nihongo No Kiso textbooks yesterday. I asked a native speaker and he said that Japanese is hard to teach to foreigners because is not logical. He then assured me several times that both sentences mean exactly the same and that there is absolutely no nuance.
However, just thinking:
この本は色々な国で読まれる。
This book is/will be read in several countries.
この本は色々な国で読まれている
This book is read in several countries.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-25
If a native speaker told you they mean the same thing, I don't see why you're trying to think about what the difference is.
Quote:I asked a native speaker and he said that Japanese is hard to teach to foreigners because is not logical.Ignore that; any native speaker has trouble explaining the way things work in their own language. It doesn't have anything to do with how "logical" the language is.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - JimmySeal - 2012-07-25
turvy Wrote:この本は色々な国で読まれる。This is a good point. If you were talking about a book that hadn't been released yet, then you couldn't use the second one.
This book is/will be read in several countries.
この本は色々な国で読まれている
This book is read in several countries.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-07-26
JimmySeal Wrote:You could if you were talking about a book that has been released in other countries but is banned or yet to be released here.turvy Wrote:この本は色々な国で読まれる。This is a good point. If you were talking about a book that hadn't been released yet, then you couldn't use the second one.
This book is/will be read in several countries.
この本は色々な国で読まれている
This book is read in several countries.
Regardless of that though, the top sentence strikes me as more natural. Maybe because the latter could imply "this book has been read by people in many countries" eg. talking perhaps how the ideas of the book are widely diffused (because is has been read by a lot of people in the past). ie. there is more of an emphasis that people have read the book not that the book is read.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-26
I agree with nadiatims that 読まれている in that sentence is more likely to mean "have read".
Although I questioned you before, I may have been wrong...I don't know if that native speaker was entirely correct. Native speakers can sometimes be quite bad at answering "what's the difference" questions based on isolated, out of context sentences. I know I am in English.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-07-26
@nadiatims Ah, now we are talking, that makes a lot more sense now.
この本は色々な国で読まれる。
This book is/will be read in several countries.
この本は色々な国で読まれている
This book has been read (and continues to be read) in several countries.
This book is being read in several countries.
^^
I can live with this.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-26
Well, let's see some actual examples of these phrases from google.
国で読まれる
日々少しずつでも成長するためのメルマガ「36℃の経年優化」を発行し、世界で最も多くの国で読まれる日本語メルマガを目指している。
日本発の国際雑誌！ 世界50数か国で読まれる日本発の国際雑誌。
日本人はあまり意識していませんが、日本人が好む雑誌の内容と他の国で読まれる雑誌の内容では方向性が大きく異なります。
この報告書は、日本のみならず、原発を保有する全ての国で読まれるべきものです。
現在世界90か国で読まれる『ひらがなタイムズ』の元編集長であり
国で読まれている
どうして中国人の名前は漢字の音読みで読み、 韓国、北朝鮮の人の名前はその国で読まれているままの発音で読むのですか？
私たちのビジネスの世界では、多くの国で読まれているシェクスピアの戯曲のように
海賊版が出回る国も多く、実際はもっと多くの国で読まれているようだ。
現在多くの国で読まれているシンガーの小説の底本はほとんどが英訳である。
Man, it's tough to say looking at those. The first example of ている is cleary "are pronounced", but the others it's hard to say whether it means "is being read" or "has been read", or has both meanings. The Eijiro examples also make it hard to see the difference.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-07-26
i asked on chiebukuro http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1391326573
will translate it later.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-07-26
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:i asked on chiebukuro http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1391326573Damn, he treated you like a total noob, talking about politeness...
will translate it later.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - JimmySeal - 2012-07-26
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:i asked on chiebukuro http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1391326573I applaud you for going those lengths, but, lol:
will translate it later.
kawasaki Wrote:差別なんて軽々しく使う言葉じゃないからねAlso, not sure if you just made a typo, but 違さ isn't a word.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-07-26
jimmyseal: I kinda knew it wasn't a word, I didn't have much time - does anyone know if there is a J equivalent of the chigaco style guide or plain words by Ernest Gowers?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yukimine - 2012-07-26
I'm currently studying Kanji through the Sou Matome N1 Kanji Book and I can't understand this question:
彼は論理的というより (A. 理屈 B. 屈折) っぽい。
The book show the correct answer as A. My dictionary gave 論理 and 理屈 as being almost the same thing, so I can't figure the difference between 論理 and 理屈. Can someone help me with the correct meaning of the above sentence? Thanks.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-07-26
Rayath Wrote:Damn, he treated you like a total noob, talking about politeness...Yeah, haha. That first responder is a total douche and didn't even answer the question.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-07-26
yukimine Wrote:彼は論理的というより (A. 理屈 B. 屈折) 。They might be testing knowledge/recognition of the word 理屈っぽい (argumentative) or that a more negative sense of 理屈 is to rationalize or use logic to make self-serving excuses.
The book show the correct answer as A. My dictionary gave 論理 and 理屈 as being almost the same thing, so I can't figure the difference between 論理 and 理屈. Can someone help me with the correct meaning of the above sentence? Thanks.
They're being a bit tricky throwing in the 論理的...より... 屈折, aren't they. I might have answered B based on stem meaning thinking that 屈折っぽい is just a word I'm not familiar with.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - JimmySeal - 2012-07-27
Tzadeck Wrote:He did answer the question:Rayath Wrote:Damn, he treated you like a total noob, talking about politeness...Yeah, haha. That first responder is a total douche and didn't even answer the question.
Quote:「この本は色々な国で読まれる」はぞんざい語、年下とかに使われる上からの目線の文章I didn't think his response was all that impolite.
「この本は色々な国で読まれている」が普通の説明文
There's a newer response there that just says that the first sentence doesn't give any specific indications about time and the second indicates something that is happening right now. I don't think the second sentence implies present perfect the way nadiatims is suggesting.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-07-28
先日の約束を忘れなく。
Looks like a contraction for 忘れないで, is this correct?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-28
Technically it's not a contraction, but it results in the same meaning but significantly less direct/blunt than ないで (I think). This idiom seems to be limited to certain verbs -- others you might see are お構いなく and ご心配なく
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kudokupo - 2012-07-31
なんたって今 １７試合連続ゴール中だからな！
Can anyone explain なんたって in this sentence?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - ergerg - 2012-07-31
なんたって is a shortened form of なんと言っても, something along the lines of "no matter what you say", emphasizes what follows
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - callmedodge - 2012-08-01
I am trying to translate "For the night is dark and full of terrors." however I am stumbling over what exactly to use for "for" and "full of".
So far I`ve got this:
なぜならば夜が暗くて恐怖で満ち溢れている。
Any help would be great!
For anyone who`s curious, the quote is something said by the Red Priests in George R.R. Martin`s A Song Of Ice And Fire.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-08-01
@callmedodge: If you decide to use 何故なら at the beginning of the sentence, at the end ～からだ has to follow
i.e. 何故なら夜が暗くて恐怖に満ちあふれているからだ。
※ Note also it's "～に（満ち）溢れる".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - sikieiki - 2012-08-02
What is with the conjugation of おみそれしました/おみそれいたしました from the verb 見逸れる? おみそれ doesnt appear to be used alone, and 見逸れる is not a suru verb so exactly what is the foundation for this usage?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2012-08-02
sikieiki Wrote:What is with the conjugation of おみそれしました/おみそれいたしました from the verb 見逸れる? おみそれ doesnt appear to be used alone, and 見逸れる is not a suru verb so exactly what is the foundation for this usage?お＋Verb Stem＋する is 謙譲語 (humble language, one of the parts of keigo).
いたす is the humble form of する.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific_speech_in_Japanese
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-08-02
I always try to avoid using pronouns in Japanese as I am afraid to sound stupid but there have to be many situations where you can't do without them. For example, if I am going to say something like "you are taller than me", I need to specify who will be compared against who using より.
1. Can you talk a little bit about this or maybe provide some other examples where using personal pronouns is absolutely necessary?.
2. Can you tell me what's だけ doing in this sentence: その山に登るだけの十分な体力がある。
--
P.S: Why isn't this thread a sticky? I can never remember what's the sub-forum.