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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-25
the girl is just omitting 降り出した or something.
you can sometimes omit the verb in japanese sentences.
eg:
なんてことを！
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-25
This isn't two separate sentences:
引っ越したばっかりで、いろいろ探索しようと思ってるうちに、急に雨が…
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-25
actually if you google it, you get a list of subtitles. The context appears to be:
ごめんなさい。引っ越したばっかりで。
いろいろ探索しようと思ってるうちに、急に雨が。
So it's an explanatory after thought for ごめんなさい. The next subtitle is given a new line, so I'm guessing in the original there is a big enough gap that it's not meant to be one sentence.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-25
Yes, there is a considerable gap between both (spoken) sentences, but couldn't it be like yudantaiteki is saying too?
So it's just another cliffhanger phrase ending thing.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-25
I doubt it.
Saying ごめん。 and then explaining why is very common. It's that apologize first reflex, then explaining as an after thought.
eg.
ごめんね。おくれて
Yudan's sentence seems a little odd to me. Something about the tenses doesn't add up. Maybe I'm over analyzing again...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-25
Mmm, so that で is the て form of the copula and is simply connecting the explanation to ごめんなさい, maybe?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-25
it's て form because it's meant to be the same as 引っ越したばっかりで、ごめんなさい。
It's just that sometimes when we speak, the order we think in doesn't match the standard standard order. eg. You might say:
食べた。リンゴを
it's essentially the same as リンゴを食べた。it's just that the detail (リンゴを) wasn't considered pertinent to mention until after already saying 食べた, so it's added as an after thought.
We do the same thing in English (and I assume other languages) too.
Well, did you? go to the party I mean.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - IceCream - 2012-04-25
nadiatims Wrote:actually if you google it, you get a list of subtitles. The context appears to be:It isn't that this person is apologising for having just moved though. The just having moved is the explanation for whatever happened that they needed to apologise for. (so, a little different than ごめんなさい。遅くて）
ごめんなさい。引っ越したばっかりで。
いろいろ探索しようと思ってるうちに、急に雨が。
So the で is like, being in the state of having just moved, X happened, so sorry.
i think that's usual, anyway, isn't it?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-25
Yes that's what I meant. But yeah my explanation wasn't clear.
It's like: sorry. (It's because) I just moved (you see).
I just moved and (て) [omitted], sorry.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-04-25
"逆に聴いたことことのない人は"
Does this just mean the same as koto ga nai?
I have never seen this kotokoto no nai construction before.
The page is here:http://www.cluster-edge.net/special/event_report2.html
edit: I think it might be: 異異
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - IceCream - 2012-04-25
i think it's just a typo... should just be 聴いたことのない人.
and yeah, it's pretty much the same as ことがない. の is often used in places like that, e.g. やりがいのある仕事・やりがいがある仕事. Although they give a slightly different feeling stylistically, they're pretty much interchangeable, it seems.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-25
IceCream Wrote:i think it's just a typo... should just be 聴いたことのない人.I don't think so; If you look at the source page you'll see that it's a question. It's pretty common to use は like that.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - IceCream - 2012-04-25
? yeah, it's a question...?
i was talking about the double こと being a typo... not the は
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-25
Oh okay, sorry. I guess my brain automatically filtered out the double こと so I only noticed that you'd left out は, which seemed odd. Maybe that would have been a good reason to re-read it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Soggycake - 2012-04-25
This may seem silly, but I'm stuck on what to put in Anki for 徒. There's quite a few meanings, which should I focus on? Or just learn them all...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-25
turvy Wrote:Yes, there is a considerable gap between both (spoken) sentences, but couldn't it be like yudantaiteki is saying too?No, nadiatims is right. Apology followed by -te form ending sentence is very common.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-25
There is a で in DoBJG described as the て form of です that indicates a weak causal relationship, it has to be this で we have been talking about.
Anyway,
初めに出会ったのがお花やさんなんて。お花やさんに悪い人なんてるはずないでしょう。
(1) It's なんて just another thing like など, とか, なんか to say "kind of thing"?
(2) What's なんてる? I can't even guess on this one.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-25
turvy Wrote:There is a で in DoBJG described as the て form of です that indicates a weak causal relationship, it has to be this で we have been talking about.Yes. It sometimes indicates a weak causal relationship, sometimes just "and". Same as any -te form.
Anyway,
Quote:初めに出会ったのがお花やさんなんて。お花やさんに悪い人なんてるはずないでしょう。Yes.
(1) It's なんて just another thing like など, とか, なんか to say "kind of thing"?
Quote:(2) What's なんてる? I can't even guess on this one.It would really help if you would say where you are getting these, and whether the transcriptions are your own or whether you're getting them from somewhere. I gave a wrong answer to your last question because of a lack of context and because I didn't know you were transcribing the stuff yourself.
なんてる is なんて いる. Either it's contracted or you're just not hearing the い (if you are transcribing this yourself).
Soggycake:
Quote:This may seem silly, but I'm stuck on what to put in Anki for 徒. There's quite a few meanings, which should I focus on? Or just learn them all...If you are using RTK 1, put in the keyword from the book. Otherwise you should be putting words (sentences, really) into anki, not "meanings" of stand alone characters (I'm assuming you're not intending this to be the word あだ, since that's a relatively uncommon word).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-25
@yuda I see, I thought so, but the question is what does なんている / なんてる means?
I am not transcribing, I am watching and reading the subtitles at the same time and trying to understand them, that's all.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-26
Could に also mean "with" like in 丁寧に (carefully or with care).
If so, then その眩しい笑顔に could be translated as "with that radiant smiling face" for example.
Do I make sense?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-26
It's possible; it depends on what the verb is. But grammatically that is a definite possibility.
なんている is just なんて ("like that", or a disparaging/humbling/casual meaning) plus the verb いる (to exist).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-26
I just read through the last few pages of this thread, and here are replies to posts that left unanswered or I thought might benefit from a little more explanation.
yudantaiteki Wrote:分からないことがあったら、まず、攻略などを見てください。それでも、分からない場合は、ここの質問に書いてください。This example leaks nonnativeness. Or maybe he is a little kid. I googled it and found that the following sentence is 偉いような態度をとってすいません。, which also sounds very childish or nonnative (If it were by an adult native speaker, it'd be at least 偉そうな態度ですいません. Your average adult would be more eloquent than that though, e.g., 突き放した言い方に聞こえるかも知れませんが、これもルールですので。). I'm guessing he simply meant ここで質問して下さい.
If there's something you don't understand, first read the walkthrough. Then if you still don't understand, write [that you checked the walkthrough] in your question.
Other than this part, your explanation about に vs. を seems spot on to me.
Tori-kun Wrote:Somehow, my textbooks fail to explain the proper and accurate difference between ～向けの、～向き、～のため（に・の）.. I know what they mean, if I read them I understand "the Japanese" as yudantaiteki put it. However, when it comes down to say/write things on my own, I struggle..Copy native speakers exactly the way you heard or read. Don't make up your own version of Japanese if you can't intuitively tell which to use when. Never generalize any rule or pattern. If you understand what they mean when they're used in real life, probably you don't need a more detailed explanation.
If you do want some more explanation, X向けのY means that Y is directed to X. So, for example, you can say 海外向けの放送, which means that it's broadcast overseas but most likely not domestic. The radio signal is sent to the foreign land.
This can be understood in a slightly figurative way in some cases, e.g., 子供向けの本. In this case, the target audience is children.
向き has several meanings, and one of which can be similar in meaning to X向けのY. It often takes the form of X向きのY. The basic meaning of this kind of 向き is that Y is suitable/appropriate for X.
You can say 子供向きの本 just like 子供向けの本. Because the former expression (向き) means that the book is suitable/appropriate for kids, it's pretty much the same as 子供向けの本, which means the book is targeted toward kids. But there is a slight difference. If a book happens to be very good for kids when it's not originally written for kids, 向き might be slightly better, though some might say it's the same difference.
To illustrate the difference, you can say, "この本は特に子供向けに書かれたわけではないが、とても教育的かつ易しい言葉で書かれているので、子供向きでもある。" (Children are not the main target audience of this book. But it's very educational and written in simple language, so it's a good read for kids too.) You can't swap 向け and 向き in this case.
ため also has several meanings and can be similar to 向き and 向け. Probably the closest to them are XのためのY with the sense of "Y is made for X," "Y benefits from X" or "X is the purpose of Y."
For example, 自分の論文のために描いた図 is the figure you draw for your own academic paper. This sentence alone doesn't literally mean it's directed to or suitable for your paper, though technically it should be suitable (and directed to the paper in a figurative sense) because you created it for your own paper. But what it literally means is that it's for your paper. So, you draw a "figure that works great for your paper" (in order to put it in your paper,) i.e., "自分の論文向きの図"（を自分の論文のために）描く.
This kind of ため can be really close to 向け and 向き. For instance, 子供のための本 can mean the book is made for kids, in which case it should be targeted toward kids and suitable for kids.
The original literal meanings of the three expressions are different. But they can be pretty much the same in actual use, though there is always a difference. Sometimes they're pretty much interchangeable, and other times they're definitely not.
Note that the above explanation are far from complete. It's nearly impossible to cover all the possibly confusing cases. So, like I said earlier, I think the best strategy would be to copy native speakers and never generalize anything until you're ready.
kame3 Wrote:From Death Note Anime:受け here is something like "in the wake of." Other possible translations include "Facing the fact that...," "In reaction to...," and so on.
立続けに受刑者が心臓麻痺で亡くなるという、異例の事態を受け…
I'm especially wondering about the last part. Is meant that prisoners dying from a heart attack is unusual? Or does it imply that the number of victims is extraordinary, considering the 立続けに at the beginning of the sentence? What does the 受けhere mean?
kame3 Wrote:And while I'm at it: すごいよな、悪人がバンバンしびてんじゃんThe バンバンしびて must be a typo. I don't know what the original is, but it doesn't make sense.
What does バンバンしびて mean?
SammyB Wrote:From Core6000:The original translation is correct.
なるべく早く仕事を終わらせてください。
When I saw this I thought it would mean:
please let me finish this work as quickly as possible.
However the translation is:
Please complete your work as early as possible.
I thought that passive +ください was a set construction meaning "allow me to..." e.g. 払わせてください - let me pay... ?
If it were to mean "let me finish," the verb 終わる must be used like 仕事を終わる to mean "finish the work," which is not the case because we say 仕事を終える for that. In other words, your interpretation would be correct if it were なるべく早く仕事を終えさせてください.
turvy Wrote:From ADoBJG p487:Here's how 忘れていた (忘れてた), 忘れている (忘れてる), and 忘れた work:
(d) 友達が今日来るということをすっかり忘れていた。
I completely forgot the fact that my friend is coming today.
I went through the paper Nagareboshi recommended but I am still puzzled as to how the meaning changes if I were to use 忘れている instead of 忘れていた in this case. And what about 忘れた?
姉: あー、しまった! あいつが今日来るのすっかり忘れてた！
Sister: Oh, crap! I totally forgot he was coming today!
弟: お姉ちゃん、今日彼が来るって昨日言ってあげたばかりなのに、やっぱりもう忘れてる……
Brother: I told her he's coming today yesterday, and lo and behold, my brilliant sister doesn't remember it...
姉: うるさい、うるさい、うるさい、だまれー！ もうあいつのことは忘れたって言っただろ！
Sister: Shut up, shut up, shut up! Don't remind me about him! I said I already erased him from my memory!
忘れる can mean many things, and ている, ていた, and た won't change the intended meaning of the verb. They just work as grammatical tense or aspect, which means they allow the speaker to talk about the past, something continuing, something that is a result, and the like.
If you're thinking 忘れる is equal to "forget," that's probably what's making things harder. You can look the verb up in a decent dictionary (preferably a J-J dictionary if you can or maybe a J-E dictionary with lots of example sentences) to see how it's different from the English word. They're similar but clearly different.
vix86 Wrote:This is out of the DOBJG.I wouldn't say it's ambiguous. If the speaker means the father has three students who are medical doctors, it's called poor writing because there are other ways to mean the same thing without being ambiguous. For example, you can reword it as お父さんには医者の学生が三人います。 Of course, if the context demands you to use は for 学生, you can say お父さんには医者の学生は三人います。too.
Am I wrong for believing this sentence is a bit ambiguous?
お父さんが医者の学生は三人います。
Its a relative clause pattern, but when I first read it I had been sure it was:
"[My] father has three students who are students."
DOBJG says its:
"There are three students whose fathers are doctors."
turvy Wrote:初めに出会ったのがお花やさんなんて。お花やさんに悪い人なんてるはずないでしょう。(1) Yes.
(1) It's なんて just another thing like など, とか, なんか to say "kind of thing"?
(2) What's なんてる? I can't even guess on this one.
(2) It must be なんている. It can't be a contraction because い is the root and there is a grammatical boundary between なんて and いるはずない. If anything, there could be a pause and might be better transcribed as お花屋さんに悪い人なんて、いるはずないでしょう。It must be a typo or something.
Edit: A LOT.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-26
That's quite a harsh response...any reason why you felt that was deserved?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-26
yudantaiteki Wrote:That's quite a harsh response...any reason why you felt that was deserved?Obviously 4 am isn't the right time to make a long post. I read it again quickly and edited some of it. I'm sorry if you and others are offended. There was no bad intentions. I wasn't thinking clearly and wrote whatever came to my hazy mind first. There may still be things I should delete or reword in the post, but I should leave for work in 6 hours, so I leave it as it is for now.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-26
It was only your very last line I thought was out of order; the rest of it seemed fine to me.
I may be a little sensitive, but when I was a young learner I posted on sci.lang.japan, where it was very common for people to make very harsh, biting, and sarcastic responses to beginners asking questions, and a good number of people simply did not post any questions because they didn't want to be shot down. I just don't want to see people scared to post questions because they perceive the native speakers or more experienced learners as being rude or frustrated with their questions.