The "What's this word/phrase?" thread

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Printable Version

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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-20

chillimuffin Wrote:遅くなり does make sense in the context of the letter, so I think I'll go with that. Thank you all for help!

Hold on a sec. Did you say it makes sense in the context? If you didn't know, it's an oft-used sentence for letters and whatnot that is pretty much fixed. It's like how "We regret to inform you that..." is just a polite notice; they aren't regretting anything. Don't translate such wording phrase by phrase because it's as silly as translating おはようございます as "It is early." Of course, he might literally mean it. I don't know the context. But in a normal situation it's more likely that he's being very polite rather than literally apologetic.

When you deal with fixed phrases, you should integrate the meanings and intensions into the rest of your translation. Literal meanings of those idiomatic sentences are irrelevant. Your translation should represent, as a whole, not on a phrase by phrase basis, the personality, attitude, politeness level, impression given by the original wording, and so on. Since you're translating a letter written by a well-educated and old-fashioned person, your translation is supposed to sound like well-educated and old-fashioned as well. And you're supposed to cleverly integrate the sense of the sentence in question into your writing to give the equivalent tone in English.

I think this should apply to any word or phrase, not only idioms and the like. But oft-used expressions are particularly easy to get mistranslated, resulting in extremely stilted impressions, obvious translationese or, even worse, the wrong meaning.

I don't know the background. Maybe it's ok as long as your translation makes more sense than google translation. But if it's an important letter (which I assume is the case because it's handwritten), and especially if he really means that he's sorry for being slow in doing things after everything happened, you might want to be very careful so your translation won't lose the original tone, impression, and such.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-20

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Splatted Wrote:I hate to contradict Magamo, but accidentally writing a completely different kanji seems unlikely, especially when it's such a basic one.
It seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me; 退くなり is total nonsense -- it's not even grammatically correct. Everyone has brain farts now and then, even on basic kanji. It's sort of an occam's razor -- although writing 遅 as 退 does seem a little surprising to me, it's a much more likely error (to me) than the alternative.

This is why I hate to contradict Magamo. I just end up looking like a fool. XD

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - markaleksander - 2012-04-20

Simple question. I'm watching フレーター、家を買う and came across this line at the very beginning of episode one:

この方が効率が良くなるかなと。

I get that it means something like "I wonder if this way is more efficient." but I don't get what the と is doing after かな since within context it doesn't seem to be quoting.

Thanks in advance.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-04-20

It's probably a version of と思う. Sometimes when people are speaking casually and retelling a story which involves describing their thoughts/impressions they'll drop the 思う. You already picked up the "I wonder" from かな. (In a different sentence, they could be dropping some version of 言う　or 聞く：　"they say that", etc.)

I think it's more common with younger people, but could be wrong about that. Maybe they're just more likely to be casual when speaking in public. I've seen a paper analysizing this use of と　in spoken interviews of male pop artists in their 20s. Could probably find it again if you'd like more detail.

Also, と　at the end of a sentence sometimes just adds emphasis to the utterance.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - markaleksander - 2012-04-20

Ah, I see. It seems obvious now I read it back.

The sentence is from a character in his mid-20's talking to his manager. I suppose that makes sense then.

Thanks.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-21

Having trouble figuring out why the use of the て form here:

昨日の集まりに誰がきてた？
Who came to yesterday's gathering?

How is this different from:

昨日の集まりに誰がきた？

I remember having read (or misread) something about Japanese using the past progressive / continuous to indicate simple past as well but I am not sure if that's the case here.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-21

First off, this is not progressive/continuous -- ている used with movement verbs is the "resultant state" meaning. i.e. 来ている means "he is here ["has come"]". I think you understood this but I just wanted to make sure.

Probably 来ていた sounds like it puts more focus on the fact that they were at the party rather than just focusing on the action of them coming. Personally I think either would work there but I'm not a native speaker.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-21

Thanks.

1. Basically 来た and 来てた mean the same, but I still don't understand the difference or wouldn't know when to use which. It seems that 来てた or anything て(い)る and て(い)た is more common but I may just be speculating.

2. How do you say was coming?, like "he was coming but didn't come in the end".

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - fakewookie - 2012-04-21

turvy Wrote:Thanks.

1. Basically 来た and 来てた mean the same, but I still don't understand the difference or wouldn't know when to use which. It seems that 来てた or anything て(い)る and て(い)た is more common but I may just be speculating.

2. How do you say was coming?, like "he was coming but didn't come in the end".

1. They don't mean the same thing. 誰が来た is like "who came to the gathering?". 誰が来てた is like "who was at the gathering?". Don't forget that the final verb in 来てる is いる, 'to be' or 'to exist'.

2. I would say something like 彼は来るつもりだったけど結局来なかった or 彼は来るって言ってたけど結局来なかった.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vileru - 2012-04-21

Could someone please explain what 「一語に尽きる」 means? It was explained to me in Japanese, but I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Does it mean "I can only explain x using a single word" or as Google would have it 「この一言以外に表現できない」? Or am I taking it too literally and it's more along the lines of something like "x can't be explained by words"?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-22

fakewookie Wrote:1. They don't mean the same thing. 誰が来た is like "who came to the gathering?". 誰が来てた is like "who was at the gathering?". Don't forget that the final verb in 来てる is いる, 'to be' or 'to exist'.

2. I would say something like 彼は来るつもりだったけど結局来なかった or 彼は来るって言ってたけど結局来なかった.

1. From definition, 来る is to come and いる to be/exist, right?. 来た is came and いた was. So how is 来てた／来ていた "who was at the party?". I don't get this.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-22

turvy Wrote:
fakewookie Wrote:1. They don't mean the same thing. 誰が来た is like "who came to the gathering?". 誰が来てた is like "who was at the gathering?". Don't forget that the final verb in 来てる is いる, 'to be' or 'to exist'.

2. I would say something like 彼は来るつもりだったけど結局来なかった or 彼は来るって言ってたけど結局来なかった.
1. From definition, 来る is to come and いる to be/exist, right?. 来た is came and いた was. So how is 来てた／来ていた "who was at the party?". I don't get this.

Well, you might literally represent it as "Who was in the state resulting from coming to the party?" Which functionally means "Who was at the party?" or "Who came to the party?" (which both mean the same thing in English despite one using "was" and the other "came").

As I said, I think that 来た and 来てた are functionally the same here; they both ask who was at the party (or who came to the party). There's a grammar difference, but not really a meaning one. (I think if you try to say that there's even a difference in emphasis or nuance you're pushing things too far. I can't see someone choosing to use 来た to make sure they focus on who performed the action of coming rather than who was there -- that just doesn't make any sense from a pragmatic standpoint in any reasonable context.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-04-22

Basically, what's important to remember is that 来ている never means "He's coming (to the party)" and 来ていた never means "He was on his way (to the party)". The first always means "He's here" and the second means "He was (t)here."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-22

So does this only apply to movement verbs? How can I lookup this grammar point?

The following still mean: 食べている eating and 食べていた was eating, right?.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-22

yudantaiteki Wrote:As I said, I think that 来た and 来てた are functionally the same here; they both ask who was at the party (or who came to the party). There's a grammar difference, but not really a meaning one. (I think if you try to say that there's even a difference in emphasis or nuance you're pushing things too far. I can't see someone choosing to use 来た to make sure they focus on who performed the action of coming rather than who was there -- that just doesn't make any sense from a pragmatic standpoint in any reasonable context.)

There is a definite difference there. It's just that the meaning of the word and the specific context of the sentence in question are making it hard to see.

I think your explanation of ていた/てた is good enough for a beginner. But if you want your students to understand the point through parsing a sentence by grammar, I think the difference must be illustrated by picking appropriate verbs and contexts. You can easily see the difference by comparing pairs such as:

もうお昼ご飯を食べた usually means you already had lunch, so the sentence refers to the present time as a resulting state. You can translate it as "I already had lunch," "I have had lunch" or something along those lines.

もうお昼を食べていた would mean something like "I had had lunch" as in "He asked me if I wanted to have lunch with him, but I told him I had had lunch already." Since 食べる can also mean "eat" in a more straightforward way ("straightforward" to English speakers who rely on translation), this sentence can also mean you were already eating lunch. 来る doesn't work this way because you usually use different wording like 向かっていた when you mean "He was coming (to the party)" and so on.

持つ (own/have) may be another good verb to illustrate this. For instance, in normal context, PS3を持っていた would mean that you used to own the game console but, in some context, can also mean that you were literally holding it with your hands.

Because of the meaning of the verb 来る, the difference in meaning between 来た and 来ていた may look disappeared. But the difference is still there. 来る is closer to "to come," "will come," "to be going to come" or "to be coming." And 来ている is more like "to be there." Obviously, "I will come," "I'm coming!" etc. are different from "I'm here." The same difference applies to when you talk about the past.

If you really want to go the grammar teaching route, you might want to have to teach the grammatical tense, aspect, and mood to completely explain the grammatical point in question. These are clearly separate in English. But in Japanese the past tense 〜た is not a completely "tense" per se. As you probably already know, it was the perfect aspect in classical Japanese. But it acquired the present vs. past opposition, so it works like a past tense as well in modern Japanese.

To show that 〜た does mark the grammatical perfect aspect, for example, think you're talking to a friend on the phone. He's attending a party, and you're at home. You're not sure if this woman who both you and he know is at the party, but she probably is. So you ask him to pass your regards to her if he sees her at the party. In this situation, you would say, "彼女が来てたら宜しく言っといて。" If you say "彼女が来たら宜しく言っといて," it would imply that you think that she isn't there at the moment. You're saying that she might/will come, and if/when she comes, say hello to her on behalf of you.

So, if learners want to understand it systematically in a neat way, they need to understand at least tense and aspect. It's a little too hardcore to teach them, though.

vileru Wrote:Could someone please explain what 「一語に尽きる」 means? It was explained to me in Japanese, but I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Does it mean "I can only explain x using a single word" or as Google would have it 「この一言以外に表現できない」? Or am I taking it too literally and it's more along the lines of something like "x can't be explained by words"?

It's often used in the form XはYの一語に尽きる. The literal meaning is "X is completely what the word Y means." So, it's like "X is really Y," "no other word but Y" or something along those lines.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-04-22

There is a pretty good explanation here:

http://dev.jgram.org/pages/viewOne.php?tagE=enduring

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Nagareboshi - 2012-04-22

turvy Wrote:So does this only apply to movement verbs? How can I lookup this grammar point?

The following still mean: 食べている eating and 食べていた was eating, right?.

Yes.

This website http://homepage3.nifty.com/park/aspect.htm has helped me when I had the exact same question. Maybe it will help you as well? Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-22

turvy Wrote:So does this only apply to movement verbs? How can I lookup this grammar point?

Unfortunately no; it applies to a lot of verbs. I don't know of any way to look up which ones can take progressive ている and which ones can't. Any basic grammar book will have an explanation of the meaning with some examples, but this is something you have to pick up through experience.

Quote:The following still mean: 食べている eating and 食べていた was eating, right?.

That is possible, yes. The resultant state meaning can apply to any verb, though, so 食べている can mean "I have eaten". This is especially common with もう.

As magamo indicates, the ている form tends to mean that the completion of the action is somehow affecting the present. So you might say その映画、もう見ている if you are discussing what movie to watch that night, since the fact that you saw that movie is affecting the present.

Unfortunately this is one of those things that you have to start learning at the very basic levels but takes a long time to really get used to.

magamo:

Quote:There is a definite difference there. It's just that the meaning of the word and the specific context of the sentence in question are making it hard to see.

I should have been more clear there; I meant to say that in that specific context, I didn't think there was much difference between 来た and 来ていた. There are many contexts where た and ていた are quite different.

(With negatives you have to be a little more careful; まだ食べていない is what you have to say for "I haven't eaten yet" -- また食べない sounds like "I'm not going to eat until later.")

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-04-22

Quick question: I get that 来ている isn't "coming" but could you use　来る in this kind of conversation to mean coming?

Waiting at a station
A:　彼は来ないな？ (Isn't he coming?)
B:　いや、来るよ (No, he's coming!)
A:　あっそ・・ (Ah, ok)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-22

Yes, that's fine. (来ないな is more like "Geez, he's late." I would use ね in there if you just want to confirm that he's not coming, although there is some intonation difference.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Nagareboshi - 2012-04-22

Hi everyone, I hope you can help me out with the following sentence, and the various 方 in there.

下山の後、再び海浜公園に集合。参加者皆さんから感想をいただき、解散。いい汗を流しに温泉に立ち寄った方、帰路を急ぐ方、お待ちかね打ち上げ会に向かう方。

When is 方 read as かた and ほう? Or is it かた or ほう all the time in this case? Is there any rule of thumb to remember when to use which reading?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-22

I think there was a かた vs. ほう discussion just a few pages back.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Nagareboshi - 2012-04-22

yudantaiteki Wrote:I think there was a かた vs. ほう discussion just a few pages back.

Yes, thanks for pointing me to it. According to SomeCallMeChris explanation two pages back, it must be ほう for the first reading, because it refers to a direction. Then the second could be かた or ほう, but I think it is ほう rather than かた, because the people are hurrying on their way home. Which is why I think it must be ほう in the directional sense. And for the last one, I think it is かた, because it is about the closing party the people have waited so long for. Is this correct?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-22

Nagareboshi Wrote:下山の後、再び海浜公園に集合。参加者皆さんから感想をいただき、解散。いい汗を流しに温泉に立ち寄った方、帰路を急ぐ方、お待ちかね打ち上げ会に向かう方。

This sounds like a caption or something describing a picture of people you traveled with. If that's the case, this 方 is "people" and pronounced かた.

Nagareboshi Wrote:When is 方 read as かた and ほう? Or is it かた or ほう all the time in this case? Is there any rule of thumb to remember when to use which reading?

A crude but very simple way to tell which reading you should use is that 方 is かた if it's part of a word and ほう otherwise. This doesn't work for kanji compounds, so you should be careful.

Anyway, pretty much the only common single word use of 方 that is read as かた and doesn't sound old is the "person/people" kind like your example. An exception of this is a counter. You can use it to count people, i.e., お一方 (おひとかた), お二方 (おふたかた), and お三方 (おさんかた), although some may say this already sounds old or archaic.

The other uses of 方 as single word かた are the direction and other idiomatic phrases we covered a few pages back. They're rare and usually sound archaic.

All the other kinds of 方 as かた are attached to another full-fledged word to form a new word. For example, it can attach to a verb or action word to create a word that means how/the way to do. An example of this is 行く＋方 = 行き方 (いきかた), which means "how to get there." Similarly, 話し方 is like "the way you talk." They're nouns on their own.

When combined with a noun, it can add a sense of "about," "around" or "approximately" as in 九割方 (きゅうわりがた) meaning about 90 percent. Also, it can turn a noun into a word describing a certain kind of people. e.g., 会計方 = accountants (The actual meaning is more like literally "people who are in charge of accounts). Note that 会計方 isn't a kanji compound because 会計 is a word that means exactly the same thing as what the corresponding part in 会計方 refers to.

方 as ほう is never a part of a single word except when forming a kanji compound. Usually it follows either a particle (typically の as in 東の方) or a clause (as in あまり期待しない方が良い = Don't expect too much). There are various usages, so the only shared property is the fact that it's a stand-alone word unlike the typical use of 方 as かた.

Edit: Ah, I excluded kanji compounds here. If you include compounds like 方法 (ほうほう) and 味方 (みかた), it's more complicated.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tykkylumi - 2012-04-22

Long post coming up...
Could any of you amazing people help me sort out my flashcards for my Japanese oral exam? I just want to make sure my sentences are correct before I try and memorise them!

(Please excuse it being all in kana, have only done it that way so I make sure I pronounce everything right.)

Sentences I am really stumped on working out how to say:

1. How did you get there? (I'm pretty sure my sensei wants us to use the word 'どうやって' but that's as far as I've gotten.)
2. Who did you go with? (だれといきましたか？ Maybe? My Japanese is so terrible -_-)
3. I will have to be absent from class tomorrow.
4. Because of a cold I was absent from school yesterday.
5. Because of work I will be returning home late tonight.
6. I'll stay at home because I'm busy.

What I've got for everything else. Things in bold are ones I'm not sure of. If someone could just make sure I've done this properly I'll be so grateful:

<Interests>
1. What is/are your hobbies?
しゅみ　は　なん　です　か。
2. What is your favourite food?
すきな　たべもの　は　なん　です　か。
3. What kind of sports do you like?
どんな　スポーツ　が　すき　です　か。
4. I like cooking.
りょうり　が　すき　です。
5. I like travelling very much.
りょこう　が　とても　すき　です。
6. I like listening to music.
おんがく　を　きくこと　が　すき　です。
7. I'm good at swimming.
すいえい　が　じょうず　です。
8. I'm not good at playing the piano.
ピアノ　を　ひくこと　が　じょうずではありません。
9. Do you understand English?
えいご　が　わかります　か。
10. Students usually do shopping at weekends.
がくせい　は　たいてい　しゅうまつ　に　かいもの　を　します。　
11. Mr Satou doesn't study English very much.
さとうさん　は　あまり　えいご　の　べんきょう　を　しません。
12. I don't read books at all.
ほん　を　ぜんぜん　よみません。
13. How often do you play tennis per week?
いっしゅうかんに、どの　ぐらい　テニス　を　します。
14. How many hours do you listen to the Japanese tape each day?
いちにちにどのぐらいにほんごのテープをききますか。
15. How many times do you travel per year?
いちねんに、どの　ぐらい　りょこう　を　します　か。
16. How often do you watch films each month?
いかげつに　どの　ぐらい　えいが　を　みます　か。

<Want to>
1. I want to have a hot drink.
あつい　のみもの　を　のみたい　です。
2. I want to go to a restaurant with you.
あなた　と　レストラン　に　いきたい　です。
3. I want to meet up with my friends at weekends.
しゅうまつ　に　ともだち　と　あいたい　です。
4. I want to go by taxi.
タクシーで　のりたい　です。
5. I want to learn karate.
からて　を　ならいたい　です。
6. I don't want to drink sake.
さけ　を　のみたくない　です。

<action in progress>
1. I'm reading a book.
ほん　を　よんでいます。
2. I'm writing a letter to my mother.
はは　に　てがみ　を　かいています。
3. Mr Smith is cooking.
スミスさん　は　りょうり　を　しています。
4. I live in Yokohama, Japan.
にほん　の　よこはま　に　すんでいます。
5. Mr Takahashi works for Toyota.
たかはしさん　は　とよた　に　つとめています。
6. Where do you work?
どこ　に　つとめています　か。
7. Do you know Hanoko?
はのこさん　を　しっています　か。
8. I know a good Japanese restaurant.
いい　にほん　の　レストラン　を　しっています。
9. Where do they sell tickets for the concert?
コンサート　の　きっぷ　は　どこ　で　うっています　か。

<Travelling>
1. It takes about one and a half hours to get from Tokyo to Nikko.
とうきょう　から　にっこう　まで　いちじかんはん　ぐらい　かかります。
2. How long does it take?
どの　ぐらい　かかります。
3. How do you get to the station?
どうやってえきにいきますか。
4. Please go straight on.
まっすぐ　いってください。
5. Please turn left at the second intersection.
ふたつめ　の　こうさてん　を　ひだり　を　まがっています。
6. Please stop after that traffic light.
その　しんごう　の　まえ　で　とめてください。

<Illness>
1. What's the matter?
どうしましたか。
2.I have a little headache.
あたま　が　すこし　いたい　です。
3. I don't feel well.
きぶん　が　わるい　です。

<Reason>
3. I don't go shopping because I don't have money.
おかね　が　ありません　から、かいもの　を　しません。

<Making a request/negative request>
1. Please close the door.
ドア　を　しめてください。
2. Please write in kanji.
かんじ　を　かいてください。
3. Please use these chopsticks.
おはし　を　つけてください。
4. Please teach me Japanese.
にほんご　を　おしえてください。
5. Please do not smoke in the room.
へや　に　とばこ　を　すわないでください。
6. Please do not drink coffee here.
ここ　に　コーヒー　を　のまないでください。
7. Please do not take photographs.
しゃしん　を　とらない　で　ください。

<Asking for permission>
1. May I take photos here?
ここ　で　しゃしん　を　とって　も　いい　です　か。
2. May I use this pen?
ペン　を　つかって　も　いい　です　か。
3. May I eat snacks here?
ここ　で　おかし　を　たべて　も　いい　です　か。
4. May I have this pamphlet?
このパンフレット　を　もらって　も　いい　です　か。