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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2012-04-16
The first definition of かた(方) in 大辞林 is 方向, 方位. As in 東の方（かた）, 南の方, and so on.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-16
I'm pretty sure that's a historical definition; someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but I've never heard or seen ひがしのかた (instead of ほう) in modern Japanese that wasn't intentionally trying to sound archaic. Note that the example is 東の方を望む which is sort of a literary-style phrase.
The Koujien's entry for かた meaning "direction" has only a quote from 竹取物語; often that's an indication that it's primarily a classical usage (their examples for ほう include two modern phrases).
Unfortunately in large 国語 dictionaries the definitions are often arranged by historical development of the word rather than modern usage.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-17
In pretty much every normal context, 方 in 大学は東の方にあります would be pronounced ほう. The alternative reading かた for "direction" sounds quaint. It might work in literature and some other written registers where expressions like 望む and みやる for "see" fit better than everyday language equivalents like 見る. To me it sounds even more archaic than かた for "way" or "means" in a negative sentence with an older verb form as in 今更悔やんでもせん方ない, which might be used as a normal expression by older people or as an idiom with a classical flavor.
かた for 北の方 is a very specific use and usually it doesn't mean "north" in the literal sense. The phrase is only used to refer to a married woman of extremely high rank in olden times such as the queen or the first wife of a local daimyo in the feudal era. [Edit] Ah, and it can mean 六波羅探題 as well if you know what it is.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-04-17
Is there a psychological difference between using にん and じん when 人 is in a compound. I've gotten better at "hearing" where its unvoiced vs voiced (゛) [ie: I don't mean 人 but stuff like 方 being かた sometimes and がた others] but 人 still catches me up. I almost feel (could just be my imagination) that like にん is "single person" and じん is more "abstract" group style.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-17
Which one is correct?
1. お天気がいいから、公園でボートに乗らない？
or
2. お天気がいいから、公園でボートを乗らない？
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-04-17
You use に to mark what you're 乗るing.
(The only exception I know of is when 乗る means 'to stick to' or 'to absorb', in which case what is sticking is marked by が and what it is sticking to is usually the topic [or I assume a double が construction is possible]. For example, この紙はインクが乗らない--this paper doesn't absorb ink easily.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-04-17
Ah, I see, I see.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-18
vix86 Wrote:Is there a psychological difference between using にん and じん when 人 is in a compound. I've gotten better at "hearing" where its unvoiced vs voiced (゛) [ie: I don't mean 人 but stuff like 方 being かた sometimes and がた others] but 人 still catches me up. I almost feel (could just be my imagination) that like にん is "single person" and じん is more "abstract" group style.There are rules as to when to use which reading, and it does have something to do with the meaning of a word/compound as well.
Here is a very similar question asked in this thread before:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=122548#pid122548
And this is my reply:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=122111#pid122111
Tzadeck Wrote:You use に to mark what you're 乗るing.気分が乗らない (not in the mood) is another important exception, and you can hear it any day of the week.
(The only exception I know of is when 乗る means 'to stick to' or 'to absorb', in which case what is sticking is marked by が and what it is sticking to is usually the topic [or I assume a double が construction is possible]. For example, この紙はインクが乗らない--this paper doesn't absorb ink easily.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - einahpets - 2012-04-18
Tzadeck Wrote:You use に to mark what you're 乗るing.Adding to this, according to "All About Particles," use に to indicate movement from a larger to a smaller place and を for movement from a smaller to a larger place. Examples from the book:
東京駅の前でバスに乗って下さい。
毎日新宿駅で地下鉄をおります。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-18
@turvy
think of 乗る as 'get on', not 'ride.'
ボートに乗る
get on [to] a boat
so the boat is not an object (which would take を) of the verb.
rather it's the target (or whatever you want to call it) of movement (and takes に).
乗る is an intransitive verb, meaning the the subject (が marked word) is the thing that is is affected by the verb. 乗る describes a movement, and the thing moving is the subject (the person getting on the boat).
Tzadeck Wrote:For example, この紙はインクが乗らない--this paper doesn't absorb ink easily.)that's not really an exception. It's just basically saying
この紙にインクが乗らない. > Ink does't get on [to] this paper.
この紙はインクが乗らない
this paper (I'm talking about this paper), ink doesn't stick [to it].
einahpets Wrote:Adding to this, according to "All About Particles," use に to indicate movement from a larger to a smaller place and を for movement from a smaller to a larger place. Examples from the book:That explanation seems somewhat suspect so I'm surprised it comes from such a well praised book. It's バスに because 乗る is intransitive and バス is the end location of the movement. It's 地下鉄をおりる because おりる here is transitive, meaning something like 'get off' of and train is the object. Size of the place seems unimportant. what if you were getting of say a huge cruise ship onto a tiny little island?
東京駅の前でバスに乗って下さい。
毎日新宿駅で地下鉄をおります。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-18
おりる is intransitive (おろす is the transitive equivalent); it is a little tricky to explain the を here. With movement verbs を often expresses moving through a place (i.e. 道を行く) but that's not quite what's going on here.
Koujien actually has a separate definition for this use of を, which it defines as leaving a place (there's also ここから離れる which is along the same lines). The Daijisen has:
２ 移動の意を表す動詞に応じて、動作の出発点・分離点を示す。…から。「東京―離れる」「席―立つ」
I agree that it doesn't have much to do with the size of places, though.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-04-18
It is intransitive but I'd argue it's being used transitively here. Actually I don't think transitivity is always set in stone. The moment you add an object the verb is interpreted transitively. Like in English, run is usually intransitive, but if you say "I ran a race" then run becomes transitive. "I eat" is a valid sentence, but eat is usually transitive and takes an object. Is this intransitive now? I don't know.
As far as I'm concerned そらをとぶ is transitive. But it doesn't really matter if you call it transitive or if you redefine を. I don't want to argue either.
I think the key point lies in に marking the end point (target) of the movement.
東京駅の前でバスに乗って下さい。(end point is bus)
毎日新宿駅で地下鉄をおります。(end point is the platform (which is omitted))
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - einahpets - 2012-04-18
I hadn't come across the size of places thing in regards to に／を before either so I was kind of surprised to see it in "All About Particles" recently, but once I read the description there, I was thinking it might be helpful in distinguishing some uses of those particles. That's why I posted it here. I'm certainly not an expert though so I'm not going to argue it one way or the other.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-04-18
I'm having problem with this sentence from Natsume Sōseki's Meian:
「そうです。五分ぐらいだと思っていたのが約一寸ほどあるんです」
Doctor is commenting on how long the hole is in the main? character's body. He thought it was shorter before but now he says that.
Here is a longer fragment:
「やっぱり穴が腸まで続いているんでした。この前（まえ）探（さぐ）った時は、途中に瘢痕（はんこん）の隆起（りゅうき）があったので、ついそこが行（い）きどまりだとばかり思って、ああ云ったんですが、今日（きょう）疎通を好くするために、そいつをがりがり掻（か）き落して見ると、まだ奥があるんです」
「そうしてそれが腸まで続いているんですか」
「そうです。五分ぐらいだと思っていたのが約一寸ほどあるんです」
Only thing that comes to my mind is that it means "It's two times longer than I have thought, about 3 cm."
It's also funny how 五分 can mean both 5% and half...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-18
nadiatims Wrote:I think he means that in some cases certain intransitive usages of 乗る tend to occur with the topic marker は and/or the subject marker が rather than with a place marked by に. For example, ボートは彼が乗る does make sense, but I don't think your average Japanese textbook would use such a sentence structure as a typical example when introducing the intransitive verb. If used, it would be accompanied with the vanilla sentence structure like 私はボートに乗る. But この紙はインクが乗らない would be as good as 紙にインクが乗らない to illustrate this particular usage of 乗る. The example I gave (気が乗らない) is even less likely to appear with に. An extreme case of this is 油が乗る as in 今一番油が乗っている時期だ (He's in his prime.) where a "place" marked by に would rarely if ever be used.Tzadeck Wrote:For example, この紙はインクが乗らない--this paper doesn't absorb ink easily.)that's not really an exception. It's just basically saying
この紙にインクが乗らない. > Ink does't get on [to] this paper.
この紙はインクが乗らない
this paper (I'm talking about this paper), ink doesn't stick [to it].
@yudantaiteki, nadiatims, and einahpets
It's about transitivity/intransitivity and these two particles' grammatical functions. を and に are both 格助詞. But they have different kinds of 格, or should I say, they mark different types of things. The difference in nuance between transitive and intransitive versions of the same verb can be explained systematically to an extent too. I searched my posts that explain this kind of stuff and found this one:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=149755#pid149755
It's a reply to a question about the difference between 絵に触らないでください and 絵を触らないでください.
[Edit] I forgot to answer Rayath's question.
Rayath Wrote:I'm having problem with this sentence from Natsume Sōseki's Meian:分 (ぶ) here means 1/10 of 一寸. Those units work like 1尺 = 10寸 = 100分. So, the doctor though it would be only about 1.5cm long, but it turned out 2 times longer.
「そうです。五分ぐらいだと思っていたのが約一寸ほどあるんです」
Edit: Fixed the error Rayath spotted below.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2012-04-18
magamo Wrote:[Edit] I forgot to answer Rayath's question.Thanks for your reply Magamo! I didn't know that 分 and 寸 are connected. But if (1)分 is 1/10 of 一寸, then wouldn't 五分 be half of 一寸, in other words about 1,5 cm?
Rayath Wrote:I'm having problem with this sentence from Natsume Sōseki's Meian:分 (ぶ) here means 1/10 of 一寸. Those units work like 1尺 = 10寸 = 100分. So, the doctor though it would be only about 3mm long, but it turned out 10 times longer.
「そうです。五分ぐらいだと思っていたのが約一寸ほどあるんです」
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-18
Rayath Wrote:Ah, yeah, you're right. Somehow I thought it was 一分. Sorry about that.magamo Wrote:[Edit] I forgot to answer Rayath's question.Thanks for your reply Magamo! I didn't know that 分 and 寸 are connected. But if (1)分 is 1/10 of 一寸, then wouldn't 五分 be half of 一寸, in other words about 1,5 cm?
Rayath Wrote:I'm having problem with this sentence from Natsume Sōseki's Meian:分 (ぶ) here means 1/10 of 一寸. Those units work like 1尺 = 10寸 = 100分. So, the doctor though it would be only about 3mm long, but it turned out 10 times longer.
「そうです。五分ぐらいだと思っていたのが約一寸ほどあるんです」
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chillimuffin - 2012-04-19
I'm translating a short letter for an acquaintance and there's a phrase in it I've got a problem with. It goes: 色々退くなり申し訳ございません。I'm having trouble figuring out the meaning of 退くなり here. I Googled around but it didn't really help much. Could anybody help please?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-19
chillimuffin Wrote:I'm translating a short letter for an acquaintance and there's a phrase in it I've got a problem with. It goes: 色々退くなり申し訳ございません。I'm having trouble figuring out the meaning of 退くなり here. I Googled around but it didn't really help much. Could anybody help please?It should be 遅くなり.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chillimuffin - 2012-04-19
Can it be read おそく here? I've never come across this reading for this character. Here's the scan of the sentence http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7907/phrase.jpg .The letter was hand-written by a Japanese person, well educated and old-fashioned, so I doubt there should be any mistakes in terms of choice of characters. Or perhaps the reading is archaic?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-19
chillimuffin Wrote:Can it be read おそく here? I've never come across this reading for this character. Here's the scan of the sentence http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7907/phrase.jpg .The letter was hand-written by a Japanese person, well educated and old-fashioned, so I doubt there should be any mistakes in terms of choice of characters. Or perhaps the reading is archaic?Technically there isn't such a thing as the correct reading of a kanji; you can spell a word with any kanji you want. The word has its reading, and kanji don't in the strict sense. So there is a possibility that that person used it in an unconventional way to carry a different connotation than the normal use. But I doubt it's the case because 退く is a word (and usually read as ひく). It's probably a typo unless he or she is the kind of person who would spell おそい as 鈍い and such for an effect, which is a legit but very rare writing style. Even then, it's quite unlikely not to follow the standard spelling in a letter to a person who needs a translator.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-19
I hate to contradict Magamo, but accidentally writing a completely different kanji seems unlikely, especially when it's such a basic one. That being said, I really don't know what it means.
My best guess would be that he's apologising for leaving various things undone, but it's almost certainly wrong. I'm sure it would make more sense with more context though. Knowing what the letter says, if it's a reply to something and all the circumstances surrounding the writing of the letter would help a lot. (That's probably overkill actually)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-19
Splatted Wrote:I hate to contradict Magamo, but accidentally writing a completely different kanji seems unlikely, especially when it's such a basic one.It seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me; 退くなり is total nonsense -- it's not even grammatically correct. Everyone has brain farts now and then, even on basic kanji. It's sort of an occam's razor -- although writing 遅 as 退 does seem a little surprising to me, it's a much more likely error (to me) than the alternative.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-04-19
yudantaiteki Wrote:It seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me; 退くなり is total nonsense -- it's not even grammatically correct. Everyone has brain farts now and then, even on basic kanji.Right. I write p's as q's and b's as d's and vice versa, and even p's as d's. The alphabet is even simpler than kanji. So its perfectly reasonable to imagine Japanese person screwing up the kanji.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - chillimuffin - 2012-04-20
遅くなり does make sense in the context of the letter, so I think I'll go with that. Thank you all for help!