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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kainzero - 2012-04-10

Having trouble with this:

今回の卒業を決めた
みづきの決意もきっと
新たな入り口を呼んでくれる。

The decision to graduate this time
And Mizuki's determination
We're calling it a fresh start

Something feels off with how I'm interpreting it. I know what all the words mean but I can't really put it together, especially 呼んでくれる。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-10

I need more context to understand it, but I'm pretty sure it should be more like.

今回の卒業を決めた
みづきの決意もきっと

The determination of Mizuki, who decided the graduations this time, will also surely...

Edit: I googled for the original and am pretty sure it's saying that Mizuki's leaving will open the door for a new member. I think the way it's broken up in to separate lines is just aesthetic and you should still read it as you would a normal sentence. I.e.

今回の卒業決めたみづきの決意もきっと新たな入り口を呼んでくれる。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-04-10

"今回の卒業を決めた
みづきの決意もきっと
新たな入り口を呼んでくれる。"

決める has another meaning of 'accomplish, go well, settle, score (a goal, etc.)', so 卒業を決める might just mean the same as 卒業する but with more evidence on it being an accomplishment. Or, it could be that Mizuki is deciding who graduates, as Splatted interpreted it. (If this is an AKB-style graduation, 卒業を決める could also mean 'to decide to leave the group.' Context, context, context.)

呼ぶ also means 'bring, arouse, invite', so 新たな入り口を呼んでくれる sounds a lot to me like the English phrase 'it will open new doors for us.'

今回の卒業を決めた is modifying みづき. So it would be "The decision/determination(s) of Mizuki, who (appropriate meaning of the first line depending on context), will surely open doors for others."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dtcamero - 2012-04-10

Hi, so I have this address:

〒761-4111 香川県小豆郡土庄町甲1313-1
the engrish translation I received (and cleaned up) is: 1313-1 Kou Tonoshou-machi Souzu-gun Kagawa-Ken 761-4111

and I'm trying to mail something there, and all's fine until I get to the end and the "甲1313-1" part... Now I've really only dealt with tokyo addresses before and I don't know if this is a shikoku thing, or an inaka thing or what... but google maps has no idea what this is and how it works... neither do I.

so...
1. what is this?
2. how do I enter this address into google maps in a way that it can be read, in japanese...?
3. how do I enter this address into the fedex website in a way that they can read it, in english?

cheers,

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-04-10

甲（こう） seems to be a type of 番地号 that is rather rare and is used most often in rural areas.
It's the last one here:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%B2_%28%E6%9B%96%E6%98%A7%E3%81%95%E5%9B%9E%E9%81%BF%29

When I send things to Japan from America I put them in Japanese order in romaji, I don't switch them around or anything. You can't do that on the Fedex website?

As for Google maps, if you just type in 香川県小豆郡土庄町 you'll get that 町, but I imagine Google doesn't have anything more specific than that in the area except store names.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-04-10

I know that 甲 also means one so I guessed it was this - see 517 of http://www.scribd.com/doc/59045227/444/Standard-Japanese-address-format

I would guess it means first or one in this context.

Also found this:http://www.town.ikata.ehime.jp/wiki/index.php/Manual_of_Style

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-04-10

1. It seems like an alternate way to number neighborhoods, instead of having 1丁目, 2丁目, you would have 甲・乙・丙.

2. No idea.

3. Got one result on Yahoo answers: http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1154269211

Which would have it as 1313-1 Tonoshou-machi kou.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-11

That's "shozu"-gun, isn't it? (Wikipedia also says it's tonoshou-chou rather than "machi", the eternal problem of 町 in addresses)

For the regular mail as long as you write "Japan" in English the rest of the address can be in Japanese but maybe that doesn't work for the Fed-ex website.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dtcamero - 2012-04-11

ok well that's a lot of help, thanks. I think I can figure it out from here on
Cheers,

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kainzero - 2012-04-11

@splatted/tzadeck:

thanks for the help.
i was mostly thrown off by 呼んでくれる since i've never seen it in that context

contextually the girl announced her graduation but hasn't graduated yet.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-04-11

Is there a hard fast rule on うずめる・うめる〈埋める）?
Can you 穴をうずめる　or 穴をうめる?
Can the it be 道がうずめられていた　or 道がうめられていた？

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2012-04-11

I answered but I wasn't really sure and deleted the post. (if anyone wonders where it went)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2012-04-11

Edited: Wrong again

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-11

vix86 Wrote:Is there a hard fast rule on うずめる・うめる〈埋める）?
Can you 穴をうずめる　or 穴をうめる?
Can the it be 道がうずめられていた　or 道がうめられていた？
The simplest explanation is that うずめる generally has a stronger sense of filling up and covering completely. Technically you can either うめる or うずめる when you fill in a hole in the ground. But the latter might sound too emphatic. It might be better to stick with うめる when you mean the simple opposite of "dig" unless you're sure you're not sounding weird.

Because of the slight difference in meaning, one of the two is much more frequent in certain cases. For example, if you're filling in the blank on a cloze test, うめる works much better. Also, if you're asked to explain something in detail in your own words in an exam, normally what you're supposed to do is うめる. うずめる would carry a negative connotation in such cases, e.g., writing too much with unusually tiny letters. Some pairs of English words seem to make sort of a similar distinction, e.g., pack vs. cram, although the difference between うめる vs. うずめる isn't always a positive vs. negative kind. うずめる carries a negative sense in the above examples because there's no reason to fill up the space to the extent the word うずめる implies.

So, basically うずめる has a more emphatic sense so you use it when you exaggerate or want to emphasize the sense of covering up completely etc. You don't use it for a simple fill-in task like in a cloze test or survey in normal context.

Certain phrases like 顔をうずめる and 骨をうずめる are pretty much fixed, so usually you don't use うめる when you cry into your boyfriend's chest or when you decide to spend the rest of your life in one place.

Also, うめる has certain meanings うずめる doesn't and vice versa. For example, うめる can mean "make up for," "complete something by filling a gap," and the like. So, if a Japanese export company tries to recover a loss due to the current exchange rate by investing in stocks of importers that would benefit from the strong yen, what they're trying to do is 本業で出た損失を株の運用でうめる. The cloze test example can be seen as an example of this sense as well if you see it as filling in the blank in an incomplete sentence (i.e., completing the sentence by filling in the blank).

There is a meaning only うずめる has, and it tends to carry a much stronger sense of covering. But I think its use is more ore less limited to the fixed phrases I said earlier at least in daily conversation between younger folks.

By the way, the point the explanation in a J-J dictionary kitakitsune quoted is trying to convey is not exactly 満たす vs. 覆う. It's more like the fact that うずめる implies "すっかり = completely." So you can't use うずめる if you kind of filled up a hole with dirt.

Also, 覆う is often translated as "to cover (up)." But it doesn't have the negative connotation the English translation tends to imply. So, you should be very careful if you see it as fill vs. cover. The dictionary's explanation uses 覆う because when you fill something up completely, you naturally cover it. It's not hiding or anything like that. It's just complete filling always entails covering in a neutral sense. So you can either うめる or うずめる when you mean a place gets crowded, though the latter may be better because by "crowded" you probably mean there's no space at all in a figurative sense. Also, defining the word as a synonym of うめる with a すっかり覆う sense is pretty neat because it also covers the fixed phrases nicely.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kitakitsune - 2012-04-11

magamo Wrote:So you can either うめる or うずめる when you mean a place gets crowded, though the latter may be better because by "crowded" you probably mean there's no space at all in a figurative sense. Also, defining the word as a synonym of うめる with a すっかり覆う sense is pretty neat because it also covers the fixed phrases nicely.
Yea, the dictionary says to use うずめる when referring to crowds when there is literally no space left.


「スタンドをうずめた観衆」「町を緑でうずめよう」など、ある場所を何かでいっぱいにする「うずめる」は、「うめる」で置き換えられなくはないが、隅々までびっしりという感じを表す場合は「うずめる」を用いるほうが適切

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - magamo - 2012-04-12

If someone is interested, I found an article about the difference between うめる and うずめる written by a Japanese professor.

http://dspace.lib.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2297/29723/1/LE-PR-KATOH-K-27.pdf

Note that his explanation reminds me of how my grandpa spoke Japanese, and quoting illustrative sentences from 19th and early 20th centuries literature doesn't help in this regard either. But he concludes that basically うめる is more like "filling a gap" and doesn't necessarily imply covering something, which I think still stands true today.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-04-12

magamo Wrote:**Tons of Info**
As always magamo, your explanations go above and beyond. Thanks for the posts they were very informative and helpful!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-04-13

@vix86: I could only agree! I wish someone could collect all the helpful posts magamo's written ever here and compile them. Lots of questions would never arise again as the explanations are just sooo good Big Grin

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-15

I'm having trouble with 2 sentences:

The first is from this news article.

映像では、前方の車や人をよけて走行していて、警察は、男に持病があったものの事故当時は意識を失っていなかったとみて調べています。

To me this appears to be basically two different sentences so the bolded use of て form seems really odd. Is this just like using で　in place of the だ　particle to link unrelated sentences?

The other thing that's confusing me is from アルスラーン戦記, which is a light novel I'm reading at the moment. They're discussing the position of the enemies army, and since the speaker's side's main strength is in their cavalry he's saying they've been blessed that the enemy is approaching across ground suitable for cavalry charges. (I'm assuming the comma after でしょう is just a misprint, but I thought I'd put it in anyway in case someone knows better.)

英雄王カイ・ホスローの霊れいが守護したもうのでしょう、その方角には断層も窪地もございません。

What's confusing me is the highlighted hiragana section. No matter how I break it up I seem to get something that doesn't make sense. The best I can come up with is した　もう　の　でしょう, but I've no idea what もう would mean in that case.

Thanks for any help.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-04-15

Splatted Wrote:I'm having trouble with 2 sentences:

The first is from this news article.

映像では、前方の車や人をよけて走行していて、警察は、男に持病があったものの事故当時は意識を失っていなかったとみて調べています。

To me this appears to be basically two different sentences so the bolded use of て form seems really odd. Is this just like using で　in place of the だ　particle to link unrelated sentences?
That's what it looks like to me.

Quote:The other thing that's confusing me is from アルスラーン戦記, which is a light novel I'm reading at the moment. They're discussing the position of the enemies army, and since the speaker's side's main strength is in their cavalry he's saying they've been blessed that the enemy is approaching across ground suitable for cavalry charges. (I'm assuming the comma after でしょう is just a misprint, but I thought I'd put it in anyway in case someone knows better.)

英雄王カイ・ホスローの霊れいが守護したもうのでしょう、その方角には断層も窪地もございません。

What's confusing me is the highlighted hiragana section. No matter how I break it up I seem to get something that doesn't make sense. The best I can come up with is した　もう　の　でしょう, but I've no idea what もう would mean in that case.

Thanks for any help.
I think this is 守護し　＋　たもう, which is the same thing as たまう, an old-fashioned 尊敬語　form of くれる. Which makes sense for something the spirit of a dead hero is doing.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-04-15

Thanks Filanzea, 　たもう definitely fits the book’s writing style.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - apirx - 2012-04-15

Very basic question.

How is 方　read in the following sentence, かた　or ほう?

大学は東の方にあります。

Also, is there a good resource for determining the "correct" reading, if there are multiple common ones? I don't feel like trusting google translate, but I'd also feel stupid for asking for every single little reading in this thread.

Thanks. :)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-04-15

apirx Wrote:Very basic question.

How is 方　read in the following sentence, かた　or ほう?

大学は東の方にあります。

Also, is there a good resource for determining the "correct" reading, if there are multiple common ones? I don't feel like trusting google translate, but I'd also feel stupid for asking for every single little reading in this thread.

Thanks. Smile
ひがし　の　ほう
It's ほう when it's a physical direction.
It's かた when it's an honorific term for person.
It's かた when it's a suffix on a verb meaning 'way of (verb)ing'.
When found in compounds, check the dictionary, but like all kanji it's usually the ON reading in compounds, but not always.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - kainzero - 2012-04-16

but 北の方 is pronounced きたのかた。

so, yeah, i uh... i dunno.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-04-16

The problem is that in classical Japanese, 方 meaning "direction" was かた as well. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 北の方 -- this was a word meaning "wife" or "main wife" (for reasons having to do with Chinese feng shui) and was read きたのかた. I'm pretty sure that in modern Japanese if you just mean "north [direction]" it's still read as ほう.