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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-03-20
Tzadeck Wrote:医師 is the legally correct term--medical laws use the word 医師. Likewise, in a newspaper or news program only the word 医師 would be used, and you should do the same when writing formally.Thanks for the information. That helps a lot.
医者 is applied wider than just actual medical practitioners. You could call an accupuncturist 医者, but not 医師. A medical license in Japanese is called 医師免許, so someone without a medical license couldn't call themselves a 医師.
(In the same way, in America and England "nutritionist" isn't a legally protected term, but "dietician" is. I could publish a book and call myself a 'nutritionist' and it would be A-OK legally, but I couldn't call myself a 'dietician' since I don't have a degree in the field)
That being said, most people use the term 医者 for a doctor when talking casually.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betadel - 2012-03-21
I'm reading the Kizumonogatari Light Novel and came upon this:
一周半して古い概念
For context the main character is explaining that nowadays, even though everybody knows what it is, a vampire is kind of an old concept. However I don't understand what 一周半して means.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-21
Betadel Wrote:I'm reading the Kizumonogatari Light Novel and came upon this:Isn't it just a metaphor? Google seems to imply that it's not an idiom or anything. 一周 is one revolution, 一周半 is one and a half revolutions. する just makes it mean 'to do a revolution.' So, basically, 'It's already gone around one and a half times'--similar to the English expression 'it's already been around the block a few times.'
一周半して古い概念
For context the main character is explaining that nowadays, even though everybody knows what it is, a vampire is kind of an old concept. However I don't understand what 一周半して means.
Literally, "an old concept, having already gone around a time and a half"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betadel - 2012-03-21
Oh that makes sense. Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-21
This article talks about why dry ice 'burns' when you touch it.
手で触ろうとして、「やけどするからだめ！」と、しかられたことはありませんか？火のようにあついわけでもないのに、どうして「やけどする」と言われるのでしょう？。
The bold part is what's given me trouble, "even though is not hot like fire". What's わけ doing here?. I read the entry in DOBJG but I am not sure if it's the same thing or I can't find any example that looks similar to the one in this sentence.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-21
turvy Wrote:This article talks about why dry ice 'burns' when you touch it.You can probably find this grammar point more easily as わけではない or わけじゃない. でも is sort of a variation on では (actually, も here is doing what も already does, but it's a bit hard to explain exactly how it changes the emphasis). わけ is like a deduction or conclusion, so わけではない means that it's 'not the conclusion that we should reach', or it's 'not what I mean (i.e., don't come to the wrong conclusion based on what I said)'.
手で触ろうとして、「やけどするからだめ！」と、しかられたことはありませんか？火のようにあついわけでもないのに、どうして「やけどする」と言われるのでしょう？。
The bold part is what's given me trouble, "even though is not hot like fire". What's わけ doing here?. I read the entry in DOBJG but I am not sure if it's the same thing or I can't find any example that looks similar to the one in this sentence.
So, 火のようにあついわけではない means something like 'it's wrong to say that it's hot in the way fire is' or 'I don't mean it's hot in the way that fire is' (in this case, because of the context, the meaning is closer to the former).
も instead of は could make it sound more like '(While there is some truth to saying that dry ice burns) it's also wrong to conclude that it's hot like fire.'
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-21
In this case, it's probably best to simply treat わけ as meaning 'reason'.
"The reason (that it feels like it burns / is said to burn) is certainly not that it is hot like fire."
わけ is a hard to translate in general, but it does have a strong tendency to parallel 'the reason that' or 'for that reason', at least when referring to general facts or events in the past.
Edit: I think the でも here changes the meaning from 'it's not because it's hot' to 'it's not because it's anything like hot', a sort of negative of お茶でも飲みたいか - instead of でも meaning 'or something like that' because it's negative it's 'nor anything like that' ... but like the tea example, softer than the English translation. (Is there even anything -like- a burning hot temperature other than a burning hot temperature? It's just being extra-inclusive for the sake of emphasis.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-22
I see, that's very helpful everyone. Here is my translation based on your input:
Even though the reason is not that it's something hot like fire, why it is said that it burns?.
@SomeCallMeChris? Btw, where is noni in your translation?.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-22
Hmm, I don't read わけ here as literally "reason"; I think this is the set pattern わけではない ("there's no way X" or just "It's not as if X", "It's not that X", etc.)
Goo has this:
６ （「わけではない」の形で）否定・断定をやわらげた言い方。「だからといって君が憎い―ではない」「別に反対する―ではない」
My translation would be "It's not as if it's hot like fire, so why do we say 'it burns'?"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-22
What happened to のに? How are you translating のに there? U_U
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-03-22
turvy君 you're over thinking this.
I think the textbook translation of のに is "even though", but you just gotta get a feel for it.
eg.
食べたかったのに... But wanted to eat [it] (regretful)
It's not really saying "even though I wanted to eat it".
if I had to give you a super literal translation, it'd be something like.
火のようにあついわけでもないのに、どうして「やけどする」と言われるのでしょう？
even though, it's not even the case that it's hot like fire, why is "[you] 'll burn" said?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-22
Thanks @nadiatims, I see your point, still, at my level I think literal translations are healthier. Though, what you wrote is a bit too much.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Javizy - 2012-03-22
yudantaiteki Wrote:Hmm, I don't read わけ here as literally "reason"; I think this is the set pattern わけではない ("there's no way X" or just "It's not as if X", "It's not that X", etc.)That sounds right to me, too. You here this「別に～わけじゃない」pattern a lot when the speaker is correcting someone's mistaken impression. I literally just heard an example 2-minutes ago while watching 相棒.
Goo has this:
６ （「わけではない」の形で）否定・断定をやわらげた言い方。「だからといって君が憎い―ではない」「別に反対する―ではない」
My translation would be "It's not as if it's hot like fire, so why do we say 'it burns'?"
「右京さんに用事ですか？」
「いやー、別に用事ってわけじゃないんですけどね、まあ、どうしてるかなって思いまして...」
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-22
turvy Wrote:What happened to のに? How are you translating のに there? U_U"so"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-22
@yudantaiteki That doesn't make any sense to me.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-03-22
yeah it does. It's a sentence connecting word (what do you call those again?). X so Y. It's a more liberal translation than using even though but it achieves much the same thing. even though X, Y.
The content of Y is dependent on the content of X.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-22
turvy Wrote:@yudantaiteki That doesn't make any sense to me.Well, it's more of a "feel" than a dictionary entry. Sentence and phrase connectors are very hard to give exact translations for. I just can't find a way to use "even though" in a way that sounds good to me in English there.
I guess if you want you can go with this:
"Even though it's not as if it's hot like fire, why do we say 'it burns'?"
("but" instead of "so" might work also?)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-03-22
I think it feels awkward to use a "but" or "even though" that way in an English question. The contrast between the two sentences of "It's not as if it's hot like fire" and "We say it burns" is enough all by itself, when you're asking a question about it, so you don't need the "even though" to emphasize that.
"You don't like studying, so why are you going to law school?"
"Men can't breast-feed, so why do they have nipples?"
"She said she'd be here an hour ago, so why isn't she here yet?"
Any of those sentences would probably have のに if they were in Japanese.
I guess you could also say, "Even though it's not as if it's hot like fire, we say it burns. Why is that?"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-03-22
Hmm. Sounds okay to me. Try reversing it: "Why do we say 'it burns' even though it's not hot like fire?"
That has the same "despite the fact that" meaning as "It's not hot like fire, so why do we say it burns?" "When" is also used, but is ambiguous. (Maybe their equivalence isn't apparent to non-native speakers?)
"食べたかったのに..." could be "But" or "Even though" (both conveying disappointment/dismay at the outcome - like if someone had eaten the last piece of cake or something). "But" is more casual and would sound it bit awkward with "had wanted" I think.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-22
Yeah, for the reasons just discussed, that's pretty much why I dropped のに entirely from the translation. If you wanted to put it in to be more strict about the translation and have a word-equivalent, you could put 'Although' at the beginning of the phrase.
Also, I do agree that it is pretty much the sentence pattern 'It's not as though _', but it seems to me like this sentence has room for a more strictly literal translation that gives us some idea how that came to be a set phrase.
Perhaps actually it would be better to understand the origin of the set phrase as ～わけでもない→(literal) The is no reason for ~ to be the case→(natural) It's not as though ~
My first attempt probably tried to hard to connect the 'reason' to something in a misleading fashion.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-03-22
Fillanzea Wrote:"Men can't breast-feed, so why do they have nipples?"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-03-22
その間に彼は居なくなっていました。
This card from the Core deck says that 間 is 「かん」 but I'm wondering if 「あいだ」 could just as easily work?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-22
vix86 Wrote:その間に彼は居なくなっていました。I'd say yes, but I'm curious if anyone has more to say about this (for example, is there a difference in nuance?). Progressive 和英辞典 has an entry for あいだ that includes a その間 with the same meaning (彼女はその間泣き続けた), but そのあいだ does not have its own entry whereas そのかん does (which includes only one example sentence: その間何もしていなかったのか？).
This card from the Core deck says that 間 is 「かん」 but I'm wondering if 「あいだ」 could just as easily work?
Personally, I think I actually hear そのあいだ more often, but maybe it's just because I pick it up easier since it's more easily recognizable?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-03-22
Chiebukuro actually has an entry about this:
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1132247381
The answerer says that その間に should always be 「あいだ」 but you can read it as かん in その間、.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - vix86 - 2012-03-23
Thanks for the information!
I have heard その間に a lot and I believe that's why I thought it was that, though I think I've heard そのあいだ as well (since my brain is associating it closely with その時).
------
Separate question. You can't actually use はくしょん as a verb can you? I mean that'd be like saying in English "He achoo'ed." which is understandable but a little odd to my ear.