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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-04
なんて is like なんか; Kojien says it can mark something unexpected. なかなか plus a negative means "[not] easily". から is "because"; when it comes at the end of a sentence it means the sentence is explaining something.
A non-literal translation would be something like this:
"But being hit by a doll isn't something that usually happens in your whole life."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-04
From the second to last story in my mini biographies book. This one is about Ikkyū the Zen monk and poet.
一休さんがまだ十七歳の頃のことです。町を歩いて、たくさんの人が集まっています。
「なにごとですか。」
尋ねると、一人が教えてくれました。
So far so good. And then:
「家を無くした貧しい人が、一人寂しく道ばたで死んでいたのです。それを、とおりかかった『けんおう』という和尚さんが弔っているのです。貧乏でらの和尚さんですが、いつも弱いものの見方になってくださる立派な方ですよ。」
Now I'll attempt to translate it:
家を無くした貧しい人が、一人寂しく道ばたで死んでいたのです。
The poor people who lost their house were dead in the side of the road.
それを、とおりかかった『けんおう』という和尚さんが弔っているのです。
A priest named Kenou who happened to pass is mourning there.
貧乏でらの和尚さんですが、いつも弱いものの見方になってくださる立派な方ですよ。
He is the priest of the poor and/but is [always] teaching how splendid is to look at things from the side of the weak.
I don't think that last one makes a lot of sense but I wanted to write something. What do you think?.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-03-04
Quote:家を無くした貧しい人が、一人寂しく道ばたで死んでいたのです。Because of the 一人, it's just one person who lost their house and is dead on the side of the road.
The poor people who lost their house were dead in the side of the road.
Quote:それを、とおりかかった『けんおう』という和尚さんが弔っているのです。弔う means 'mourn' but also 'hold a memorial service.' Maybe a good translation here would be 'performing burial/funeral rites.'
A priest named Kenou who happened to pass is mourning there.
Quote:貧乏でらの和尚さんですが、いつも弱いものの見方になってくださる立派な方ですよ。Here, 方 isn't the abstract 方 that means 'way' -- it's the polite way to refer to a person. So, 'a splendid person.'
He is the priest of the poor and/but is [always] teaching how splendid is to look at things from the side of the weak.
貧乏でら is a poor temple. （寺）"He's a priest from a poor temple, and..."
Are you sure that 見方 shouldn't be 味方, 'ally'? That would make more sense to me given になって.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-04
The story is all in ひらがな except for 1st grade 漢字 so I don't know.
What about いつも弱いもののみかたになってくださる立派な方ですよ。I can't quite make sense of that part either. And what is ものの?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-04
turvy Wrote:The story is all in ひらがな except for 1st grade 漢字 so I don't know.If you put things from ひらがな to 漢字 on your own when you ask questions here you'll just end up making mistakes and confusing the people who try to help.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-04
Excuse me but you are not the only one that knows some Japanese, all the 漢字 I entered are most likely correct to the story, except maybe for that one Fillanzea pointed out.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Splatted - 2012-03-04
turvy Wrote:The story is all in ひらがな except for 1st grade 漢字 so I don't know.It's 者 ＋ の
What about いつも弱いもののみかたになってくださる立派な方ですよ。I can't quite make sense of that part either. And what is ものの?
Like Filanzea said, 方 means person. everything before that up to the comma is describing what kind of person he is. It can be split in to:
立派な - which obviously means he was splendid
+
いつも弱い者の味方になってくださる - which means he always gave help to the weak. (became the ally)
If the sentence as a whole confuses you, try attaching 人 to the end of each of these phrases and trying to understand them separately first. (e.g. いつも弱い者の味方になってくださる人 = Someone who is always helping the weak) Their role in the sentence is essentially the same, but they both share the same noun.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-03-04
見方・味方 is not a big deal but I do think it's better to leave things in hiragana if they were originally written that way.
いつも弱いもののみかたになってくださる立派な方ですよ。
弱いもの - 'those who are weak'
の is just the possessive no. (There is another ものの that means "although," but that's not the usage here.")
よわいもののみかた = 'the ally of those who are weak.'
So a literal translation would be something like "He's a splendid person who becomes an ally for those who are weak." (That use of "becomes" sounds weird in English, but this is a literal translation.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-04
Everyone makes mistakes. I'm not saying that I'm great at Japanese and you're not. I'm saying that if anyone is asking about a native source, why not leave it as it is to reduce the possibility of errors and confusion.
(That is, unless what you're asking about is what the proper kanji would be.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-04
Thanks everyone, I got it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-03-04
Tzadeck Wrote:こんな状況は、子育てをした人なら誰しも経験があることだろう。いつかも動物園で若い夫婦が子どもと歩いていた。子どもが転び、いかにもどこかけがをしたかのように泣き叫び、母親を見て助けを求めた。母親はちらっと見て、にっこり笑った。「さあ、自分で起きなさい」というわけが、子どもの方ががんばるので、母親は根負けして子どもを抱き起こし、泣きじゃくる子を一生懸命あやした。私たちの子どものころは、まるでサルの子同様に扱われていて、母親の邪険さを恨んだものだがと苦笑させられた。I asked my tutor about this paragraph, and her response was pretty interesting. She responded that いつかも sounds like it's being used similarly to ある日 here, and that this story was meant to explain something that the writer actually saw and does not sound hypothetical.
She agreed about the だがと thing though, and suggested that to her it sounds like what is left out is something about how we (or he) didn't really fully resent or bear a grudge against our mother's hard-heartedness.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-03-05
Thanks -- I really wasn't certain about the hypothetical/real part. At least I was right on half my answer, though.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-05
More from the biographies book, this one about 野口英世.
毒を取り出さなくてはならない、危ない仕事です。（人の嫌がる仕事こそ進んでやらなくては。）
I'm having trouble with the part in red, specially 進んでやらなくては.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-03-05
My guess would be that なくては is a shortening of なくてはならない - must or have to. I am not entirely sure of this, it just seems the most likely.
Te yaru means, according to dbjg doing sthng for someone below you in the pecking order.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-05
Thanks Joshua, that helps. I am still trying to come up with a literal translation though.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-05
turvy Wrote:More from the biographies book, this one about 野口英世."We must advance in particular the work that people don't like to do."
毒を取り出さなくてはならない、危ない仕事です。（人の嫌がる仕事こそ進んでやらなくては。）
I'm having trouble with the part in red, specially 進んでやらなくては.
人が嫌がる仕事 : Work that people don't like
こそ : This especially
進んでやらなくては：must advance
-なくては is an understood contraction of なくてはいけない
More naturally it's going to be "In particular, we need to make progress with work that people find unpleasant."
I presume that in the context the work being discussed is not being done well or has a labor shortage or both. If that's not the case, my translation might need re-evaluating, but there's no way to be sure when you don't give any context.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-05
Thanks that's clarifying. Actually, that's exactly it so what more context did you need? I mean, what other information should I have written here? It's not like I am trying to hide all the context to drive people crazy.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-03-05
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:進んでやらなくては：must advanceYou don't know how happy I am. Is there any list of these contractions online, or do you just have to get good at getting them like I am beginning to?
-なくては is an understood contraction of なくてはいけない
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-03-05
Turvy: I just said 'we' as a general translation - I don't really know if the actor is an individual, an industry, a government agency... I don't know what the work is exactly other than it seems to involve removing poison sometimes...
Context is generally speaking, the sentence before, the sentence after, the point of view the piece is from (especially role and social position), the setting of the piece (time, location). In the case of dialogue, the participants in the conversation and their relationships, but that's not relevant here. Japanese is a highly context-sensitive language, unlike English, and so any of these elements can completely reconfigure the meaning. It's just fortunate that the obvious assumptions to make were in fact correct in this case.
Josh: I don't know about a list; my familiarity with shorthand writings for 'must' comes from Tae Kim's Guide: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/must
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-03-05
I understand that, but I have a 'feeling' that no matter how much context you put in, someone is always going to say, "well, I'm afraid that's the best I can do with the context you are providing…".
Anyway, thanks x 100
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-03-06
turvy Wrote:I understand that, but I have a 'feeling' that no matter how much context you put in, someone is always going to say, "well, I'm afraid that's the best I can do with the context you are providing…".Well, some sentences are by their nature ambiguous, even in context. Some are totally unambiguous by themselves. Seriously, the people saying that aren't being jerks, they just honestly have multiple (valid) interpretations in their head and all they can do is give the most likely one...
Anyway, thanks x 100
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - einahpets - 2012-03-06
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I just saw this link on another discussion yesterday and haven't really had time to go through it yet. It's all in romaji but might have some of what you're looking for:SomeCallMeChris Wrote:進んでやらなくては：must advanceYou don't know how happy I am. Is there any list of these contractions online, or do you just have to get good at getting them like I am beginning to?
-なくては is an understood contraction of なくてはいけない
http://www.fredshack.com/docs/jcolloquialabs.html
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thurd - 2012-03-06
zigmonty Wrote:That's because we're clinging helplessly to a thought that there must be a translation when in reality some things just don't translate, period.turvy Wrote:I understand that, but I have a 'feeling' that no matter how much context you put in, someone is always going to say, "well, I'm afraid that's the best I can do with the context you are providing…".Well, some sentences are by their nature ambiguous, even in context. Some are totally unambiguous by themselves. Seriously, the people saying that aren't being jerks, they just honestly have multiple (valid) interpretations in their head and all they can do is give the most likely one...
Anyway, thanks x 100
I take comfort in how many things/concepts do translate sometimes even literally, given how much these languages and cultures differ it really surprises me.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-03-06
einahpets Wrote:That's awesome. Thanks!HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I just saw this link on another discussion yesterday and haven't really had time to go through it yet. It's all in romaji but might have some of what you're looking for:SomeCallMeChris Wrote:進んでやらなくては：must advanceYou don't know how happy I am. Is there any list of these contractions online, or do you just have to get good at getting them like I am beginning to?
-なくては is an understood contraction of なくてはいけない
http://www.fredshack.com/docs/jcolloquialabs.html
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pervygoat - 2012-03-06
I love this thread sooooo much. Its going to take awhile to read all 173 pages though.