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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Thora - 2012-02-23

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:THANKS! I got taxpayer wrong but i think i got the grammar basically right. Thanks again.
I thought I should mention that the 2 translations are grammatically different. In yours, 端末装置 has a subject role in 税金の納税、証明書の発行を行える, whereas in mutley's, 納税者 is the subject.

納税者が直接操作して税金の納税、証明書の発行を行える端末装置を提供することによって、
職員の負担を軽減し、納税者の待ち時間を削減する。

て works in this sentence b/c the clause meanings fit a use of conjunctive て and they have the same subject. I don't think your interpretation works b/c joining those 2 modifying clauses with て would be ungrammatical. If the second modifier were the only one, 端末装置 could have a subject role in it.

Modified nouns in English typically have a grammatical role the clause. Subject and object are most common, so we tend to try to interpret Japanese sentences that way.

端末装置 doesn't have a subject or object role in the following modifying clause - I guess it's like an instrument. (terminals by which taxpayers can carry out tasks.)

[納税者が]税金の納税、証明書の発行を行える端末装置

(Keep in mind that in Japanese, modified nouns often don't play any grammatical role in the modifying clause. The relationship requires inference and can be ambiguous.)

So ...for writing or parsing multiple modifying clauses, sometimes it helps to consider:
1. each clause type (can't mix content and regular)
2. role of noun in clauses (same for parallel, can differ in others)
3. joinable? (uses/restrictions on て　joining, for eg)

I hope this isn't confusing or unnecessary. It's hard to know.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-02-23

That's very interesting, thanks. I think i undstood the grammar and changed the word order which you shouldnt do in a patent.
"in Japanese, modified nouns often don't play any grammatical role in the modifying clause." this is going in my grammar notes.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-02-23

dtcamero Wrote:偉人が天才とは限らない。

this supposedly means "A great man is not necessarily a genius"

but I would think it means something more like "great men are not limited to be only geniuses"
~とは限らない is kind of a set phrase; EDICT glosses it as "it's not necessarily so, it's not always true", and you'll also find it in grammar references including the Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar. The limitation applies to the whole quoted phrase (here 偉人が天才): "reality is not limited to the situation of $phrase" if you like. (but really you're better off thinking of it as 'not necessarily' than anything involving the word "limit"; 限る does a lot more grammatical work than 'limit' and direct translations of sentence patterns rarely work well.) Random example: ここのお料理もいつもおいしいとはかぎらないんですよ。

I'm not entirely sure what meaning you're trying to indicate by "great men are not limited to be only geniuses". The only interpretations I can come up with are (1) a rather tortured rephrasing of the standard translation (ie there are great men who are not geniuses as well as ones who are), or (2) trying to say that great men can go beyond genius to be something greater than that, which is a bit odd because 'genius' is already a superlative.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-23

The first story of the book I'm reading of mini biographies is about Hellen Keller and turned out to be not as hard as I thought, however there were about 60 new words.

However, near the end I am having trouble figuring out the grammar in the following: 先生はヘレンに唇を触らせ、時には口の中に突っ込ませたりして、声の出し方を教えました。

I was expecting 触らせて using て to connect to the next sentence.

And what is going on 突っ込ませたりして? (突っ込む) I just can't figure that one out.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2012-02-23

turvy Wrote:The first story of the book I'm reading of mini biographies is about Hellen Keller and turned out to be not as hard as I thought, however there were about 60 new words.

However, near the end I am having trouble figuring out the grammar in the following: 先生はヘレンに唇を触らせ、時には口の中に突っ込ませたりして、声の出し方を教えました。

I was expecting 触らせて using て to connect to the next sentence.

And what is going on 突っ込ませたりして? (突っ込む) I just can't figure that one out.
There's probably a proper word for it but て form without the て is more literary/formal.

For the second question, I guess it means the teacher pushed her fingers in Helen's mouth to make her form the right shapes with her tongue etc.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-23

Mmm て without て and is just a 1st grade book… and what about たりして.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-02-23

~たりする is in most beginners textbooks, but probably it's usually listed as XたりYたりする. It means to do things like X and Y.

But, actually, you can also use it with just one verb. Xたりする means to do X and other things like X.

So this is 突っ込む put into causative form 突っ込ませる, which is then put into たりする form 突っ込ませたりする which is then put into てform 突っ込ませたりして.

So, basically, the teacher made Helen touch her lips, and sometimes made her do things like put her fingers in her mouth, to teach her how to produce a voice.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-23

Ah, たり…たりする, I should have tried harder, however even though I was aware of that pattern I didn't know it was applicable to just one item.

Thanks, I can't believe I finished my first story, so happy.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-23

What is そうでないと?
My guess is ~ Otherwise / If is not that / If that isn't the case

日本人はとても仕事に厳しいで すから、決して遅刻したり、無断欠勤したりしてはいけません。そうでないと、「明日から来 なくてもいい」と言われてしまいます。
Japanese people are very strict about work, you can't never be late or absent from work without excuse. Otherwise you will be told "You don't have to come from tomorrow."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-02-23

turvy Wrote:What is そうでないと?
My guess is ~ Otherwise / If is not that / If that isn't the case

日本人はとても仕事に厳しいで すから、決して遅刻したり、無断欠勤したりしてはいけません。そうでないと、「明日から来 なくてもいい」と言われてしまいます。
Japanese people are very strict about work, you can't never be late or absent from work without excuse. Otherwise you will be told "You don't have to come from tomorrow."
Yeah, that's right. It's all pretty much regular grammar. そう means what it always does; で（は）ない means what it always does; と means what it always does. Though, together I can see how it would be confusing.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dtcamero - 2012-02-23

pm215 Wrote:
dtcamero Wrote:stuff
stuff
thats a great explaination, thanks very much!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-24

This may be totally out of my league but here it goes anyway:

いつも楽しく行かせてもらっていますが本当に身になっているのか不安です。
It's always fun to let them go but we are worried if they could really gain something.

That's my best shot at it right now.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-02-24

It's hard to say without any additional context, but almost always, when you have the verb もらう　the speaker (or someone in the speaker's group) is the one who is receiving.

行かせてもらっています　= "[we] are receiving the favor of [them] letting us go."

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-02-24

it is always fun to be let go (by them, him, her) but we are worried if we are gaining anything.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-02-24

I wonder if this 楽しく行く is in the figurative sense like うまく行くmeaning figuratively "go well" not "go (to a place) well." So it becomes "go enjoyably" or "be fun."

いつも楽しく行かせてもらっていますが本当に身になっているのか不安です。

luckily (Some one) always makes it (some activity) enjoyable, but I wonder if (I) really get anything out of it.

I'm guessing this could be someone talking about a class or school or something.

Could you post the context?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-02-24

いつも楽しく行かせてもらっていますが本当に身になっているのか不安です。

行かせてもらう sounds like it might be best translated in English just as 'go', and is just showing gratitude to someone for allowing the possibility, so there's a chance that a good English translation would be something like "We are always happy to go (and we're grateful [to whoever]), but I wonder if I/we really get anything out of it."

As nadiatims says, not really something you can translate well with no context.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-02-24

That is true, Tzadeck.

There are a lot of times when もらう/いただく　means "I'm going to do what I want, whether you actually give me permission or not":

死んでもらう！ -"I will receive the act of your dying" = "I'm going to kill you."
原発問題について発表させていただきます　= "I will receive your letting me make a presentation about the problems of nuclear power plants" = "I'm going to make a presentation about the problems of nuclear power plants."

(In the second case the receiving verb indicates gratitude/politeness. In the first case, not so much.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-24

Moral of the story: Context.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-02-24

Tzadeck Wrote:As nadiatims says, not really something you can translate well with no context.
Actually I think your translation is spot on, and I was just reading too much into it, analyzing too deeply.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thurd - 2012-02-24

yudantaiteki Wrote:Moral of the story: Context.
This reminds me of how errors are reported by testers, everyone knows a good description with lots of information and if possible, replication steps would make the whole "fixing" process much quicker and painless but in reality nobody does it. Most of the time it ends with a reply back to the tester: "need more info" but the (not) funny thing is they never seem to learn from that mistake...

Here everyone knows Japanese is highly context dependent language but often question contains only the problematic phrase (sometimes very cryptic) and no additional info Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-24

Well, the context is: written by parents in a survey regarding their level of satisfaction with the English classes given to their children.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-02-24

thurd Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:Moral of the story: Context.
Here everyone knows Japanese is highly context dependent language but often question contains only the problematic phrase (sometimes very cryptic) and no additional info Smile
I don't think everyone DOES know this - I didn't learn until lately late on - It would have saved me a lot of hassle if i had realised how ambiguous Japanese was.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-02-24

'Ambiguous' and 'context-dependent' are different things. All languages tend to omit what's already known from context, and if Japanese tends to do so more than English, English still does so much of it that it pulls us up short when we realize just how ambiguous it can be.

("We need to get these people to a hospital!"

"A hospital? What is it?"

"It's a big building with doctors and patients. But that's not important right now.")

I will recommend for at least the second time that you read "Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin. Seriously.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-02-24

Fillanzea Wrote:'Ambiguous' and 'context-dependent' are different things. All languages tend to omit what's already known from context, and if Japanese tends to do so more than English, English still does so much of it that it pulls us up short when we realize just how ambiguous it can be.

("We need to get these people to a hospital!"

"A hospital? What is it?"

"It's a big building with doctors and patients. But that's not important right now.")

I will recommend for at least the second time that you read "Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin. Seriously.
Yeah, I know. I should have added an also to my post. I think in your above sentence intonation would have made the meaning clearer in English? The first time read it, I interpreted your last sentence as read the book for a second time, ironically.

If anyone doesn't believe that I didn't know this look at page 152 of this thread - I thought that I could understand a sentence just by looking at grammar which was stupid, immature and naive of me. it was the silliest thing I did when learning Japanese along with not studying grammar AT ALL (I swallowed the lie it was easy hook line and sinker), not thinking backwards and childishly turning down a scholarship to Japan to prove a childish point and deliberately ignoring japanese exchange students because i thought I didn't listening skills...

I have the book and i scanned through it. I am defo going to read through it though. There was a lot of stuff on the causative that I honestly didn't know and I found this useful and humbling. I was a bit saddened by the overly short kanji chapter though...

With regards to grammar I have made flashcards from the Makino/Tsutsui Dictionaries and am really struggling with them. I am also remembering to work backwards as well as practising reading/translation as much as possible - do you have any other tips?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - mutley - 2012-02-24

turvy Wrote:Well, the context is: written by parents in a survey regarding their level of satisfaction with the English classes given to their children.
I think this information is key to the translation.
My interpretation of it would then be that 行かせる is refering to the act of the someone (parents/school) making children go to lessons, while もらっています shows that the children are receiving this act.

How about:
My children are always excited when I send them to the classes, but I worry about how much they are actually learning.

Or even just:
My children enjoy going to the classes, but I worry about how much they are actually learning.


(My could be translated as our, and children as child)
身になる　seems to me to suggest a permanent acquisition of knowledge, so the parents may feel the children are studying plenty of English, but not really remembering it permanently.