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+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-01-31
I just read なさるな is the negative of なさい. So, what is the negative imperative? な?
EDIT: I read な is simply the negative imperative, I was taking my source too seriously.
(http://www.epochrypha.com/japanese/materials/verbs/Verb.aspx?rule=imperative)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-31
yudantaiteki Wrote:I've never seen なさるな before; it's an odd combination of honorific-polite and the abrupt negative.It is one of these forms that only exists in prescriptive and not descriptive grammars - it is like conjugating the verb suicidarse in Spanish in the past tense first person... This is why I think grammar should always be descriptive.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-01-31
In a fantastic setting maybe:
So, how come you are in hell Fernandez?
Me suicidé, so I couldn't get to heaven.
Or talking about a dream:
I dreamed "me había suicidado", it was awful.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-01-31
turvy Wrote:I just read なさるな is the negative of なさい. So, what is the negative imperative? な?As you say, it's usually just な. Note that as the page points out, this is not used very often in comparison to other forms. ないでください is more polite, but even that is probably too direct for many situations -- most of the time it makes sense to use alternate expressions that aren't actual commands/imperatives, things like ないほうがいい, なくてもいい, and so on.
EDIT: I read な is simply the negative imperative, I was taking my source too seriously.
(http://www.epochrypha.com/japanese/materials/verbs/Verb.aspx?rule=imperative)
When you think about it, English tends to use imperative or command forms frequently for things that are not really commands. For instance, if you say "Don't go to the movie tomorrow, it's opening day so the theater will be packed", you're not literally ordering or commanding the person not to go, it's just a way to express a suggestion. In Japanese this would normally be done with ないほうがいい rather than the imperative. That page you linked gives another example, where giving someone directions is usually done with imperatives in English but would sound very odd to do that in Japanese.
I've personally never used imperatives except with fairly close friends and even then only in lighthearted ways (i.e. それを言うな in a joking manner).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-31
turvy Wrote:In a fantastic setting maybe:lol one of my best friends discussed this in class... I grant you that all aspects of language (even word order as we see in Joyce) can be altered to the quite bizarre, but I just think that prescriptive grammar tables which churn out bonkers phrases like nasaruna trick the unwary learner into thinking that these phrases are/can be used IN EVERYDAY SPEECH.
So, how come you are in hell Fernandez?
Me suicidé, so I couldn't get to heaven.
Or talking about a dream:
I dreamed "me había suicidado", it was awful.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-02-01
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:Yeah, i remember in class we had a teacher who would ask for a random verb from each verb class and then use them to explain a new grammar rule... regardless of whether it formed a sentence you would ever say. On the plus side, if you knew what the rule was going to be, you could have some fun with the verbs you chose. 死んだほうがいい comes to mind.turvy Wrote:In a fantastic setting maybe:lol one of my best friends discussed this in class... I grant you that all aspects of language (even word order as we see in Joyce) can be altered to the quite bizarre, but I just think that prescriptive grammar tables which churn out bonkers phrases like nasaruna trick the unwary learner into thinking that these phrases are/can be used IN EVERYDAY SPEECH.
So, how come you are in hell Fernandez?
Me suicidé, so I couldn't get to heaven.
Or talking about a dream:
I dreamed "me había suicidado", it was awful.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
Thanks @yudantaiteki. By the way, I wish I had figured out long before on my J studies that grammar is in fact very useful, not in order to compose sentences but to understand native material.
Anyway, I am using Aeron Buchanan's poster and Tim Sensei's grammar guide to make notes for all the forms with examples. I will read them until my eyes bleed, then I will be ready to jump into something like graded readers.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-02-01
turvy Wrote:By the way, I wish I had figured out long before on my J studies that grammar is in fact very useful, not in order to compose sentences but to understand native material.Yeah, the "look at the key words and guess" method of understanding japanese seems pointlessly frustrating and error prone to me. I don't know why so many people seem to think it's a good idea.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
About this sentence:
私が眠られないことがある。
I can't figure out the conjugation of the verb.
眠る is 五段 so 眠れ＋る is its potential form. This form is treated like an 一段 to conjugate further. The past form would be then 眠れ(-る)＋ない。
眠れない for (Subject) can't eat.
What is 眠られない and what is the grammar rule?. What am I missing?
Thanks.
EDIT: Unless of course, the sentence is wrong. I got it from here, the last one.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-02-01
turvy Wrote:What is 眠られない and what is the grammar rule?. What am I missing?I guess it is in fact potential, however the more proper/grammatical form without the ら抜き. I might be wrong, however
To me, 眠れない sounds somewhat more proper, but according to google both are used, the one without ら more often, however.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-01
It's a mistake, I think. This is the opposite of ら抜き, it's ら付き（？） -- adding ら where it shouldn't be. This isn't something I'm familiar with although google suggests it is used even in published books; it's definitely not as acceptable as ら抜き though.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
So can I use 眠れないことがある。"There are times (when) I can't sleep."
?
What about ことがない ? Is that even valid?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-01
Yes, it's the opposite of ことがない.
日本にいったことない (I haven't been to Japan)
(I wouldn't say you "can" use 眠れない, I would say you should definitely use that instead.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
I see.
--
I was talking about ことがある when added to the plain form like
笑うことがある。
There are times when I laugh.
By the way is it, ことがある or ことはある? What's the difference?.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-01
Yes, you can use it like that too.
It's the same as the difference between が and は anywhere else...which is a complicated topic and I'm about to go to bed, sorry.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
lol
Thanks a lot.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - bakuchiku - 2012-02-01
What does あてくし mean? I can't find it in any dictionaries but it comes up with loads of examples when I google it ._.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-02-01
bakuchiku Wrote:What does あてくし mean? I can't find it in any dictionaries but it comes up with loads of examples when I google it ._.Net slang, first person pronoun, probably originally a deliberate slurring/corruption of わたくし. http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1226686597
Looks like it's usually katakana; googling for "アテクシ" とは brings up a number of hits of definitions/explanations.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - bakuchiku - 2012-02-01
Thanks =)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-01
What's the difference between ことになる and ことになった?
勉強することになる。
?
勉強していることになる。
It has been decided that I will be studying.
勉強することになった。
It has been decided I will study.
***
EDIT:
Here is my guess derived from the meaning of ことにする:
食べることにする。 I (just) decided that I will eat. (It was decided in the moment.)
食べることにした。 I (have) decided that I will eat. (It was decided on a different time.)
なる and なった would be the same but seemingly without my participation in the decision, (or at least other people participated as well so is not my own decision alone.)
食べることになる。
たべることになった。
What do you think?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-01
Seems fine, although remember that plain verbs (e.g. する) often represent future tense as well. So "I will decide..." is good as well.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-02
About this sentence:
ちょっとお話したいのですけれど。
What is the function of の and けれど here? I know の can function as a nominalizer and けれど means but, although but that doesn't seem to be the case here. What's the grammar?.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-03
のだ is a grammar point that is very difficult; it's often contracted to んだ or just の as well. It basically provides a reason or asks for explanation, but it's hard to explain in short. In this case, it's providing the reason why you are interrupting or talking to the person.
This けれど does indeed mean "but"; the idea is that it leaves the conclusion of the sentence to the listener. It allows the listener (who you are imposing on) to suggest a course of action, and also allows them to refuse in a softer manner since you didn't actually make a direct request of them.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - turvy - 2012-02-03
Thanks, I searched for のだ in renshuu and Jgram but the first one doesn't have it and Jgram's explanation is too lacking, in other words, I still don't get it.
Is this point the same one described here in Tae Kim's?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-02-03
Yes, it is.
And you're right, you don't get it, but don't worry! -- it's not something you get quickly, or even after a long time. I still don't fully get it. In my opinion this is bar none the most difficult grammatical feature of Japanese, and it's used constantly. There's not much you do except start with a basic understanding of the "explanation" or "reason" idea and see how it's used in real situations.