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+--- Thread: The "What's this word/phrase?" thread (/thread-3249.html)
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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-01-10
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:In the following patent am I right in thinking that 記憶された modifies 記憶媒体?These sentences really translate kinda crappily (i hate patent speak) but here goes:
請求項１～１０のいずれかに記載された電子ジグソーパズルの実行に使用される命令集合体、データ等が記憶された、情報処理装置により読み取り可能な記憶媒体。
The 命令集合体 that is used in the application of the electric jigsaw puzzle of any of claims 1-10 and the storage medium that stores data and so on and is able to read by an information processing device.
A storage medium that is readable by the information processor, which stores the set of instructions, data, etc used to execute the electronic jigsaw puzzle described in any of the claims 1-10.
Whether 使用される is modifying "命令集合体、データ等" or just "命令集合体" is ambiguous, i'm filling in based on my understanding of the computers. You generally need both instructions and data.
"Execute" may be "implement". But it normally means execute in the docs i read.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-01-10
pm215 Wrote:(Anybody got a good translation for 命令集合体? Google suggests it's a sequence of instructions, ie a program, but...)I've never seen it as a compound before (patent speak, sigh). I get it as literally "instruction assembly" or "instruction aggregate". It's not the normal term used to mean "instruction set" as in "instruction set architecture". That's usually 命令セット in the stuff i've read (plus that wouldn't make sense in this context, as you don't store an instruction set in a memory). "Set of instructions" was the best i could come up with. It's clearly describing a program, yes.
But yes, let's recap, this clause is claiming that "a memory that stores a program and can be read by a CPU" is somehow novel enough to patent... Ugh... Such parasites on society. There's a bunch of Von Neumann architecture computers from the fricking 1940s that are prior art. The only thing "new" is that the program is a jigsaw puzzle... but the whole point of a Von Neumann architecture is that it is not hardwired to a single program (programs are data). So the novelty of this claim is that it's less flexible than computers from the 1940s and can only store the kinds of programs in claims 1-10. [slow clap]
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-10
thanks to both of you for your replies. Grammar is still difficult for me, but I want to master it by the end of the year! I am happy that I understood a bit of the claim and am going to try one a day.
pm215 Wrote:In your English you've made 命令集合体 the head of the noun phrase, which is wrong. (Hint: "X, Y等" usually means "X, Y and so on" or sometimes just "X and Y". "and so on" is obviously not patent lawyer language ;-))Thanks, I didn't read it like this, I will live and learn.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-01-10
I can't help wondering if maybe you don't want to try to find something that's just a notch less grammatically complex (maybe technical documentation that isn't patents?)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-01-10
zigmonty Wrote:So the novelty of this claim is that it's less flexible than computers from the 1940s and can only store the kinds of programs in claims 1-10. [slow clap]Ah, no.... the claim doesn't claim memory storage -in general-, that certainly is prior art. It patents memory storage devices that -are holding- the set of machine instructions described in claims 1-10.
Or more clearly, they are patenting having this -particular- program on any computer-readable storage medium.
Which is fine (leaving aside the -general- issue of software patents). Assuming for the sake of argument that steps 1-10 describe some revolutionary breakthrough that is legitimately patentable, you then want to go on to say 'we claim patent rights on our breakthrough in any form of computer readable medium'.
This stops some jerk from coming along and saying 'I claim patent rights on XYZ corp's program -when it's on a USB flash key-! They only patented their program when it's running on a computer and I've improved it and they can't distribute my improvement without paying me off!'
Physical device patents can similarly read something like, 'claim N: the first hundred claims when molded out of plastic. claim N+1: the first hundred claims when made of cast metal. claim N+2: the first hundred claims when carved out of oak... '
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-01-10
pm215 Wrote:"X, Y等" usually means "X, Y and so on" or sometimes just "X and Y".http://www.gally.net/leavings/01/0148.html is interesting on this point, incidentally.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-01-10
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Yes, which is ridiculous. If loading an arbitrary program on an arbitrary computer is not patentable, i fail to see why loading a specific program on a specific computer should be. There is nothing novel in that. I haven't read the other claims, but i doubt there is anything novel in the whole thing. If your product is an electronic puzzle, you should have the right to claim copyright on the software and maybe the board design/layout. It does not merit a patent. It is not an invention. It is an entirely obvious extension of available technologies. I don't give a damn what the law is, the law is wrong. Arguing that it's a ridiculous defensive patent to protect against other ridiculous patents doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous.zigmonty Wrote:So the novelty of this claim is that it's less flexible than computers from the 1940s and can only store the kinds of programs in claims 1-10. [slow clap]Ah, no.... the claim doesn't claim memory storage -in general-, that certainly is prior art. It patents memory storage devices that -are holding- the set of machine instructions described in claims 1-10.
Or more clearly, they are patenting having this -particular- program on any computer-readable storage medium.
Anyway, this rant is not really appropriate in this thread... so i should stop.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-10
pm215 Wrote:I can't help wondering if maybe you don't want to try to find something that's just a notch less grammatically complex (maybe technical documentation that isn't patents?)I have translated technical documentation successfully and want to challenge myself with patents, I realize I don't understand the grammar, that is why I am on this thread.
I have got better at understanding patents and grammar in general and I am sure I will improve in time. Thanks for the help!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2012-01-10
In the following sentence:
その頃、私は金がなく、 昼の中華料理屋で、 三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。
Is the author saying that among the 30 and 35c meals (that he usually eats?), if he could obtain an expensive one once or twice a month at the most, then that was good? I should know this, but what exactly is the ほう doing here? Is this ほう as in "way"?
Thanks!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - animehunter123 - 2012-01-11
Is this correct Japanese (sort of advanced...). What does it mean, what context would it be used?
文句をいわないように、筋道の通った考えだぜ！
Thank you in advance
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - animehunter123 - 2012-01-11
Here is what my notes from class i wrote, but im not sure what this means, can someone help:
筋道の通った考えだぜ！
すじみちのとおったかんがえ。
すじ‐みち【筋道】
１ 物事がそうなっているわけ。事の条理。道理。「―を立てて話す」２ 物事を行うときの正しい順序。「―を踏んで事を進める」
リーゾンだぜえええ！！！文句をいわないようにとか・・・
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-01-11
Elenkis Wrote:In the following sentence:I'd say it means "At that time I didn't have any money. If I were able to get one of the 30 or 35 cent meals at the Chinese place even once or twice in a month despite their expense, that would have been on the good side of things."
その頃、私は金がなく、 昼の中華料理屋で、 三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。
Is the author saying that among the 30 and 35c meals (that he usually eats?), if he could obtain an expensive one once or twice a month at the most, then that was good? I should know this, but what exactly is the ほう doing here? Is this ほう as in "way"?
Thanks!
I think the ほう here means one of the possible alternatives for how things could be. よいほう is the better alternative, the better side of things.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-01-11
@elenkis:
"その頃、私は金がなく、 昼の中華料理屋で、 三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。"
I'm not entirely sure but it think it's something like:
those days, I didn't have any money, at the lunchtime Chinese place, out of the 30 cent and 35 cent set meals, at best in a month just 1 or 2 times, if I could just get my hands on (有り付く) the expensive one(高いの) I'd be glad/happy (よい) I was the type (of guy) (ほう).
Or translated elegantly:
Those days, I didn't have any money and was the kind of guy who, choosing from 30cent and 35cent set meals at the Chinese place I'd go to at lunchtime, would be happy to finally get a hold of the more expensive of the two at most once or twice a month.
ほうだった is referring here to the writer themself. Their situation. What ほう of situation they are in. "I was the kind of guy" is a pretty loose translation.
edit: I'm not entirely sure if 高いの is pointing specifically to the 35cent meal or to both the 30cent and 35 cent.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2012-01-11
animehunter123 Wrote:Is this correct Japanese (sort of advanced...). What does it mean, what context would it be used?Something like "This is a logically thought out idea so you can't complain about it."
文句をいわないように、筋道の通った考えだぜ！
Thank you in advance
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-01-11
Haha, I definitely interpreted that sentence way differently than nadiatims. I thought of 高いのにありつければよいほうだった as 高い のに ありつければ よい ほう だった rather than 高いの にありつければ よい ほう だった (my spacing is still a bit odd--I mean that I wasn't thinking of の as it' pronoun-ish use 'expensive one'). I guess because I don't really see the word ありつく very often, and didn't realize that what you get is marked by に.
I also originally though of both the 30 cent and 35 cent meals as being the expensive ones, since it's not a big price difference, but the うち probably implies that it's just referring to the 35. (Again, since I was thinking of it as たかい のに rather than たかいの に, this possibility seemed less likely).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2012-01-11
"その頃、私は金がなく、 昼の中華料理屋で、 三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。"
I just want to talk about this ほう because I'm not sure if I interpreted it right...
せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。
If I could get my hands on the more expensive one at best once or twice a month then I counted myself lucky.
or .....then it had been a good month
or something like that...
It feels like he's saying that when he got it once or twice a month that that was the good ほう (compared to times when he couldn't even get it that much).
I dunno... am I completely off track with this? This is just how I automatically interpreted it when I first read it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vashti - 2012-01-11
Current problem:
僕と二人きりに決まっているじゃないか
…人以外ならもう一匹、隣の部屋でゲームでもしてるんじゃないか？
Okay, this sentence has me at a bit of a loss. I'm reading the first line as "didn't you decide it should be just the two of us?" but the second has me stumped.
Is it something like "If you don't want other people, can't you play more games with next door's pet?" Would appreciate any help, thanks.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Fillanzea - 2012-01-11
僕と二人きりに決まっているじゃないか
This shouldn't be "didn't you decide" -- that would be 決める. 決まる is an intransitive verb, so it works a little differently, and ～に決まっている idiomatically means something like, "it's obvious," "of course it's going to be that way."
…人以外ならもう一匹、隣の部屋でゲームでもしてるんじゃないか？
人以外 = besides people
一匹、隣の部屋でゲームでもしてるんじゃないか？
Isn't an animal playing games or something in the next room?
So,
(When it comes to people) of course the two of us are alone. If you're including animals too, isn't there one playing games or something in the next room?
(In this case it's probably an annoying human being being referred to as 一匹 to imply that he is less than human or otherwise not relevant to the issue of being 二人きり.
(Verb) ないか is "why don't you do so-and-so"?; じゃないか is "isn't it the case that?"
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-01-11
Ash_S Wrote:It feels like he's saying that when he got it once or twice a month that that was the good ほう (compared to times when he couldn't even get it that much).ほう here is isn't referring to the times he could get the expensive meals as よい as opposed to the よくない times he didn't. Though he is saying he'd be happy to get it 1/2 times a month, the ほう bit exists outside of that. The entire entire sentence seems to just be a giant predicate (subject is omitted. その頃 is probably topic). If he was saying one ほう was good as opposed to the other. That would be blahblahほうがよい。 with predicate "よい", and subject blahblahほう. So ほう here is referring to the speaker's situation/life compared to other peoples situation/life. My life was this ほう. Hence my "was the kind of guy that..." translation. There is the possible that I'm completely wrong though but I don't think so
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Vashti - 2012-01-11
Ah, you are my star! Transitive and intransitive verbs are my bugbear - they're
so easy to spot and I always fall down on them. ありがとうございます！
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-01-11
This seems to be the whole paragraph:
そんなある日、大学の図書館で中国語の自習をしていると、見知らぬアメリカ人の大学院生がやって来て、「あなたは毎日のように中華料理を食べているそうですが、今晩私と一緒に食べて下さいませんか。」と誘われた。その頃、私は金がなく、昼の中華料理屋で三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。そんな具合だったし、面白そうな人なので、私は喜んで誘いに応じることにした。
The ほう is a bit difficult to pin down but I'm tempted to go with nadiatims interpretation...although I'm not sure either.
Vashti:
One other thing to keep in mind is the でも, which seems to trip a lot of people up:
ゲームでもしてる
In this case it means "or something", i.e. "play games or something like that".
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2012-01-11
Thanks for the responses to my sentence. The author is Donald Keene, talking about how he first started studying Japanese in 1940.
I'm not sure if it would help, but the full paragraph is:
そんなある日、大学の図書館で中国語の自習をしていると、見知らぬアメリカ人の大学院生がやって来て、「あなたは毎日のように中華料理を食べているそうですが、今晩、私と一緒に食べてくださいませんか」と誘われた。 その頃、私は金がなく、 昼の中華料理屋で、 三十セントと三十五セントの定食のうち、せいぜい月に一度か二度、高いのにありつければよいほうだった。 そんな具合だったし、面白そうな人なので、私は喜んで誘いに応じることにした。
Edit: And beaten to it by Yudan... Sorry!
Because the unknown American guy implies that the author was eating Chinese food almost every day, I had assumed that he was getting the 30 or 35c meals at the Chinese place each day and so this invitation was a rare (once or twice a month at most) opportunity to get something more expensive. But I don't really know whether or not 35c was considered expensive back in 1940, so maybe that skewed my understanding of it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Ash_S - 2012-01-11
nadiatims Wrote:Thank you very much! It's kinda hard for me to get my head around but I think I get it now. ThanksAsh_S Wrote:It feels like he's saying that when he got it once or twice a month that that was the good ほう (compared to times when he couldn't even get it that much).ほう here is isn't referring to the times he could get the expensive meals as よい as opposed to the よくない times he didn't. Though he is saying he'd be happy to get it 1/2 times a month, the ほう bit exists outside of that. The entire entire sentence seems to just be a giant predicate (subject is omitted. その頃 is probably topic). If he was saying one ほう was good as opposed to the other. That would be blahblahほうがよい。 with predicate "よい", and subject blahblahほう. So ほう here is referring to the speaker's situation/life compared to other peoples situation/life. My life was this ほう. Hence my "was the kind of guy that..." translation. There is the possible that I'm completely wrong though but I don't think so
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Betelgeuzah - 2012-01-11
Asu, ashita any difference?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SomeCallMeChris - 2012-01-11
They're essentially the same word, but 'asu' is the older pronunciation, and so slightly more formal, considerably more likely to show up in idioms and proverbs. 'ashita' is the normal reading, but 'asu' is heard daily, especially since newscasters use it.