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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - TheVinster - 2012-01-08

Thanks as always pm215. I'm going to finish Major in 4 days and I'll aim for completing my next manga in 3.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-01-09

I'm just helplessly lost with the following grammar points: 「～ようとする」「～ようとしている」「～る・た・ているところ」.

「～ようとする」 to try
- I don't get the hang of this one. With 「～てみる」 one can express an attempt like in the following, right?
納豆が食べてみたい。 I want to try eating it (and see what it's like).
服を着てみた。 I tried on this cloth.
服を着ようとする。　？

「～ようとしている」 Shows change/movement A is about to start/end
Used in referring to changes A that aren't based on will/decision of a person (movement of a train, change in seasons, etc.)

秋が終わろうとしている。
危ないですよ。あの氷はもう溶かしようとしていますよ。

- This one has practically nothing to do with the usual 「～ようとする」 version, it seems, expressing change and movement of A.

So how to differentiate to ところ now?

誘拐されたところだったが、お巡りさんは通りかかった。
I was just about to be kidnapped (= but I wasn't. I was just about to be kidnapped), but a policeman happened to pass by.

家へ帰るところだったのに、地震で破壊されました。
Right when I was about to go home, it was destroyed by the earthquake.

(Note the double-past usage in the first sentence.)

I'm just absolutely confused with this grammar; it seems that ところ can be used equally in meaning to ようとした?!!? ;(

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-01-09

Another short question:

この季節になると、必ずと言っていいほどインフルエンザや風邪が流行ります。

I'm getting irritated by ほど. Is it "the more~, the more~" for the adjective いい? 言っていい＝言ってもいい, but this sentence part is a mystery for me..

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2012-01-09

~と言っていいほど= you can go as far as saying ~

here ほど is like 'as far as, to the extent of'

この季節になると、必ずと言っていいほどインフルエンザや風邪が流行ります。
When is gets to this season, you can go as far as saying that flu and colds will definitely spread around. (This sentence sounds a bit unnatural but I hope it shows what ほど is doing here.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-09

I think i posted this before but it didn't work

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111101172630AAWG8fR

This native Japanese speaker explains i well. It is the type of thing you need a native for.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - astendra - 2012-01-09

Tori-kun Wrote:「～ようとする」 to try
- I don't get the hang of this one. With 「～てみる」 one can express an attempt like in the following, right?
As you say, they are similar and can both be translated as "try", but ～てみる carries a nuance of trying something "to see what it's like or what will happen", while ～ようとする does not.

Furthermore, in the past tense, ～ようとした means that there was an attempt to do something, but not necessarily that the action actually occurred. Paraphrasing DBJG, the first sentence below would mean that Brown did try Tom's shirt on, whereas the second would mean that he tried to, with the implication that he couldn't or didn't actually do it.

ブラウンさんはトムのシャツを着てみた。
ブラウンさんはトムのシャツを着ようとした。

～ようとする can also be used with inanimate subjects to mean that "something is about to happen", like so:
太陽が沈もうとしている。
太陽が沈もうとする時に、...

I guess it's pretty much what you've said already... I'd write something about ところ, but I'm too tired right now.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-01-09

Tori-kun Wrote:I'm just absolutely confused with this grammar; it seems that ところ can be used equally in meaning to ようとした?!!? ;(
ようとした is about "somebody made an attempt at doing some action", as astendra says. ところ doesn't have that sense. In sentences like "誘拐されたところだったが、お巡りさんは通りかかった。" it's expressing a counterfactual -- something nearly happened but (because of some chance) didn't. (This is distinct from the use of ところ in sentences like 電話したら、あいにくちょっと前に出かけたところだった which is expressing that something has just happened, and goes with Vるところ [about to V] and Vているところ [in the middle of Ving].)

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:It is the type of thing you need a native for.
That's a bit of a counsel of despair, since it implies that it's a very hard distinction for a learner to pick up. In fact I think that しようとする vs してみる isn't that hard to grasp, even if it's not a distinction we tend to make in English.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - zigmonty - 2012-01-09

pm215 Wrote:
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:It is the type of thing you need a native for.
That's a bit of a counsel of despair, since it implies that it's a very hard distinction for a learner to pick up. In fact I think that しようとする vs してみる isn't that hard to grasp, even if it's not a distinction we tend to make in English.
The second meaning of しようとする (to be about to do something) helps. There's not really two meanings here, but shades of the same meaning (that's how i see it anyway, probably not strictly correct). しようとした means you were about to do something (you tried to do it), but failed for some reason (usually). eg 出ようとしたところに、something something. When i was about to/tried to leave, something happened. The action itself probably didn't feel like a "try" until you failed.

出てみた would be strange in the same situation, unless it is expected that you may fail to leave. You might try to leave a locked room, for example. You might try to climb out the window. You might try to leave the house for the first time. But the situation is different to the situation where 出ようとした would be used.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-09

pm215 Wrote:That's a bit of a counsel of despair, since it implies that it's a very hard distinction for a learner to pick up. In fact I think that しようとする vs してみる isn't that hard to grasp, even if it's not a distinction we tend to make in English.
I meant that this distinction isn't explained in most basic grammar books.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-01-09

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:
pm215 Wrote:That's a bit of a counsel of despair, since it implies that it's a very hard distinction for a learner to pick up. In fact I think that しようとする vs してみる isn't that hard to grasp, even if it's not a distinction we tend to make in English.
I meant that this distinction isn't explained in most basic grammar books.
It's in the DoBJG, with the clarifying pair of sentences astendra posted. 日本語文型辞典's explanation for てみる says どんなものか、どんな所かといったことを知るために、実際に行為をすることを示す。試みる意志があっても実際に行為をしていない場合は、使わない。たとえば、「会ってみたが会えなかった」のような使い方は誤用となる。この場合は、「会おうとしたが会えなかった」のようになする。
If you have a grammar book that covers both these and doesn't mention the difference you might want to think about getting another one :-)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-09

I know its in the dictionary of basic Japanese grammar, but that is a fairly specialist work. I just think if there is a Japanese speaker on hand it is easier to check with them than wade through a reference book.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2012-01-09

That's dangerous, though -- Japanese natives don't always give correct answers to questions about the difference between X and Y. They know how to use them but if they've never really thought about it or studied grammar, they can easily give wrong answers.

(The DoBJ is nothing approaching a "specalist" work, it's a very accessible beginner book)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-09

I would call it a specialist work - very few people study Japanese and even fewer would spend money on the dictionary - I do agree I was a bit misguided saying you need a native speaker, though i do think there are certain grammar points where you need a native to help you understand.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Inny Jan - 2012-01-09

yudantaiteki Wrote:(The DoBJ is nothing approaching a "specalist" work, it's a very accessible beginner book)
Surely you realise that "specialist" doesn't mean the same to everyone - for some DoBJG is to dry to follow for others it's not specialist enough.

I took a look at "An introduction to Japanese - Syntax, Grammar & Language", which seems to be a study of Japanese from linguistic respective (hence, it is a specialist position) and to me, as a mere language learner, that "Introduction..." was not what I needed. I don't have that problem with DoxJG.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mennon - 2012-01-09

Hey

Does anyone know what this word means?
"専重" as in "個人を専重する".
I'm assuming it means "to place emphasis on the individual" or something like that, but I can't find it in any dictionary and I'd love a concrete definition, and also a 読み方. I'm also guessing that it's せんじゅう but I don't know for sure.

Cheers

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Eikyu - 2012-01-09

尊重？

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Mennon - 2012-01-09

Yes! Dammit my wife's handwriting is awful. Thank you.
BTW How many times do I need to learn the lesson that if it's not in the book, it means I've screwed up somewhere.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2012-01-09

How big the audience is for a book has nothing to do with whether or not it is a 'specialist book.' If you call the DoBJG a 'specialist book' then you are using the word specialist wrong.

If you wrote, say, an introduction to philosophy, if the number of people who are studying philosophy suddenly fell to less than 10,000 people, that wouldn't make it a 'specialist book.' That would make the book have bad sales. It would make philosophy an obscure subject in America. But it wouldn't make the book a 'specialist book.' An introductory text to any regular subject is not specialist. (A textbook on, say, quantum mechanics could be called specialist, however, because it is a special topic within a field. You would have to have studied math and physics up to a high level for the book to be appropriate for you. Although quantum mechanics could be called a 'subject,' it's not the type of subject I mean. 'Physics' would be a subject, 'quantum mechanics' would be a field of physics.)

However, if I wrote a book about the similarities between Nietzsche's philosophy and the beliefs of the Pythagoreans, that would be a specialist book regardless of sales.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2012-01-10

＞ようとするところ
This combination drives me crazy...

ちょうど、出かけようとしているところです
I am about to leave.

Ok, and in DBJG I have got this example for ところ:
ハルコは晩御飯を食べるところだ・です。 Haruko is about to eat supper. (so she's directly before eating it)

Following this LOGIC:

ちょうど、出かけるところです
I am about to leave. <- Right?

So what's the difference with ようとする? With ようとする what is implied? ところ just says, that it's right before leaving/eating supper. (If Haruko eats supper or not, isn't said/implied.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2012-01-10

ようとする is volitional form + adverbial と(ドカンと、すらすらと etc)+する.
it shows the intention accompanying the するing if that makes sense. You can use other words than する eg:
出かけようと着替えた。 with the intention(volition) of going out, i changed clothes.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-10

I am not sure whether I have understood でしかできない and what I think is an embedded sentence:

長さの確認を目視で行うことでしかできないため、望まれた長さになっているのか分かりにくかった。

because you can only check length by eyesight, it becomes difficult to know whether it has become the desired length or not.

Any help would be much appreciated.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2012-01-10

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I am not sure whether I have understood でしかできない and what I think is an embedded sentence:

長さの確認を目視で行うことでしかできないため、望まれた長さになっているのか分かりにくかった。

because you can only check length by eyesight, it becomes difficult to know whether it has become the desired length or not.
The first part with でしかできない seems fine to me. In the second part though, unless you made a mistake when you typed the Japanese, shouldn't 分かりにくかった be 'it was difficult to know'? 'becomes difficult to know' would be 分かりにくくなる。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-10

pudding cat Wrote:
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:I am not sure whether I have understood でしかできない and what I think is an embedded sentence:

長さの確認を目視で行うことでしかできないため、望まれた長さになっているのか分かりにくかった。

because you can only check length by eyesight, it becomes difficult to know whether it has become the desired length or not.
The first part with でしかできない seems fine to me. In the second part though, unless you made a mistake when you typed the Japanese, shouldn't 分かりにくかった be 'it was difficult to know'? 'becomes difficult to know' would be 分かりにくくなる。
Thanks! I got the hard parts right, but made an easy mistake by not reading closely - this is typical of me. Thanks again!

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-01-10

In the following patent am I right in thinking that 記憶された modifies 記憶媒体?

請求項１～１０のいずれかに記載された電子ジグソーパズルの実行に使用される命令集合体、データ等が記憶された、情報処理装置により読み取り可能な記憶媒体。

The 命令集合体 that is used in the application of the electric jigsaw puzzle of any of claims 1-10 and the storage medium that stores data and so on and is able to read by an information processing device.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2012-01-10

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:In the following patent am I right in thinking that 記憶された modifies 記憶媒体?

請求項１～１０のいずれかに記載された電子ジグソーパズルの実行に使用される命令集合体、データ等が記憶された、情報処理装置により読み取り可能な記憶媒体。

The 命令集合体 that is used in the application of the electric jigsaw puzzle of any of claims 1-10 and the storage medium that stores data and so on and is able to read by an information processing device.
If you think it modifies 記憶媒体 then your own translation is wrong, because in your translation it's modifying "electric jigsaw puzzle"...

You have the context so this should be easy to answer -- what have claims 1-10 been describing? Is it electronic jigsaw puzzles, sequences of instructions, (sequences of instructions, data, etc), or storage media?

Also, this entire thing is one big noun phrase whose head is 記憶媒体, so your translation needs to be something of the form "A storage device which ....". In your English you've made 命令集合体 the head of the noun phrase, which is wrong. (Hint: "X, Y等" usually means "X, Y and so on" or sometimes just "X and Y". "and so on" is obviously not patent lawyer language ;-))

Again, this sounds suspiciously like a standard patent language form for "I'm not really patenting an algorithm here because I'm claiming a patent on a disk which can be read by a computer and which has my algorithm on it"; a good translation needs you to find out what the standard English-language phrasing for this is.

(Anybody got a good translation for 命令集合体? Google suggests it's a sequence of instructions, ie a program, but...)