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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:ファンの人気投票をもとに審査し、今年の歌のベストテンが決まります。 ???This one seems fairly straightforward; which part is confusing?
Quote:予定どおり終わるように計画を立ててやってください。Must be talking about making a plan for someone other than the speaker.
In order to finish the way the schedule is, please make a plan (the 立ててやって part is difficult here for me)???
Quote:新しくできたレストランは値段も安ければ味もいいと評判です。It's a noun; I think this is like と評判します or という評判; I've seen this type of thing before but I don't have a good grammatical explanation for it.
Only if the newly opened/made restaurant has a cheap price as well as a good taste (in their dishes), it's reputation (評判 is confusing me. Is it an adjective here? I thought it only existed as a noun.)
Quote:建設的なご意見でさえあれば、どんな小さなものでも大歓迎です。As long as it's a constructive comment, we welcome even the smallest thing/comment.
Only if it's a constructive opinion (view, perhaps better), whatever little things can also be a warm welcome (warmly welcome).
Quote:一人でやるのは大変ですが、みんな忙しそうなので、手伝ってもらうわけにもいきません。It's difficult doing it on my own, but since everyone is busy, I can't really ask for help. (てもらう refers to the speaker asking others for help)
(I know) it's hard doing it on your own, but since seemingly everybody is busy (including me?), I can't help you either (にも, right?)
(ok, who can/can't/must/mustn't help whom? lol The わけにもいきません part troubles me)
Quote:あんなやせた人が、相撲とりのわけがない。相撲取り 【すもうとり】 (n) (Sumo) wrestler, (P)
I have no expectation that such a thin person, ???
Quote:インスタントラーメンはお湯を入れさえすれば食べられる便利な食品だ。Instant ramen is a convenient food that you only need to add water to be able to eat.
Even if you only need to put instant ramen in hot water, it is a convenient and edible (?) food (or: food one/you can eat. It's potential isn't it?)
Quote:たとえお世辞でも、子供をほめられれば親はうれしいものだ。ものだ here is the grammatical function, not "thing" or "person". It shows that something is the usual way. "Parents tend to be happy when you praise their children, even if it's just oseji" (I don't have a good translation for "oseji" off the top of my head; it means something you say just to be polite, or to try to get on someone's good side)
Even if it's just a compliment, parents, if they praise/commend their child(ren) are happy (beings). ??
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SendaiDan - 2011-08-04
@Tori-kun
Reading those example sentences is really natsukashii. I remember last year going through them all trying to learn the grammar. For each point I tried to remember one sentence so I wouldn't forget the grammar...but it hasn't really worked. The only one I can remember off the top of my head is the 血だらけ one about the person at the scene of the car accident, and I don't even remember the sentence.
I think you will find as you get into some more of the abstract grammar points you can translate them literally into natural English. I think it is much better to try and translate the sentence naturally and "understand and feel" the meaning of the grammar rather than trying to translate the sentence word for word because sometimes it doesn't really work out all the time. Sorry, just talking from my experience here
Tori-kun Wrote:言葉さえ共通なら、お互いにもっとコミュニケーションがよくできたでしょう。Here さえ is kinda used like でも but has more of the meaning of 'at the very least' or 'is the only thing that is needed'. So it is saying 'As long as you share the same language (or As long as the language is the same), you should be able to communicate with each other well'.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
@Yudantaiteki
Thanks for taking time and commenting on my lines!! Sometimes just a small piece of advice opens my eyes and makes me realise my mistake. Thank you so much(<3)
Tori-kun Wrote:ファンの人気投票をもとに審査し、今年の歌のベストテンが決まります。 ???I tried translating it like: The popularity contest of fans, based on a jury, decides about this year's 10-top/best singers.
Quote:予定どおり終わるように計画を立ててやってください。I could not find any good translation for the 立ててやって part, unfortunately.
予定どおり終わるように - In order to finish as planned/the way the schedule [is]
Oh, I see 立てて can also mean 'especially', so, perhaps the sentence could more or less mean "In order to finish as planned/scheduled, please make especially a plan." ?
Quote:新しくできたレストランは値段も安ければ味もいいと評判です。Was the sense of my translation correct/acceptable, though? As far as I understood the sentence it's about a new restaurant openening and that it will have fame/reputation given the food is good and the price is cheap, both..
Only if the newly opened/made restaurant has a cheap price as well as a good taste (in their dishes), it's reputation (評判 is confusing me. Is it an adjective here? I thought it only existed as a noun.)
Yudantaiteki: It's a noun; I think this is like と評判します or という評判; I've seen this type of thing before but I don't have a good grammatical explanation for it.
This construction reminds me a bit of ～といいです but this might be something completely different/off..
Quote:It's difficult doing it on my own, but since everyone is busy, I can't really ask for help. (てもらう refers to the speaker asking others for help)Thanks for that tip! Absolutely overran it..
Edit: No.13
医師による診断の結果を報告します。
The doctor reports the result of the diagnosis.
動作の主体（主に受身文で）を示す。
「名」＋によって/により/による
I thought this is a printing mistake or so. I've seen による only with passive voice and します is active as far as I know. Replacing it by は would make sense again, but otherwise this sentence just confuses me not from its content but from the grammar point trying to be illustrated here with a non-passive (see the description itself.. it says passive, he) verb..
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
SendaiDan Wrote:@Tori-kunYeah, you're probably right concerning that one, SendaiDan! That's what I always try, translating as natural as possible into fluent and natural English. I recognise lots of forms in this volume have really the same meaning and differ only in nuance; ～に伴う and ～にしたがって f.e. are very alike, aren't they?
I think you will find as you get into some more of the abstract grammar points you can translate them literally into natural English. I think it is much better to try and translate the sentence naturally and "understand and feel" the meaning of the grammar rather than trying to translate the sentence word for word because sometimes it doesn't really work out all the time. Sorry, just talking from my experience here
Perhaps you still do own the deck/spreadsheet with the sentences you typed in and could send it to me? At least that would be a bit of a help, having a reference when I work here. Thanks for your advise (advice??) \o/
Edit: Well, so far from 30 questions in the smaller tests in between in the book, I had just 2-3 mistakes, so I suppose searching for good/better translations using your help was quite efficient so far?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SendaiDan - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:Perhaps you still do own the deck/spreadsheet with the sentences you typed in and could send it to me? At least that would be a bit of a help, having a reference when I work here. Thanks for your advise (advice??) \o/Ah sorry I never typed up all the sentences into excel/anki, instead I picked one sentence I liked from each grammar point and wrote it out by hand. Made for good kanji practice
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SendaiDan - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:Edit: No.13Well it isn't really saying that the results will be reported, it is saying that somebody will report the results. So the results aren't the subject of the sentence, but the person/hospital etc that will report the results is.
医師による診断の結果を報告します。
The doctor reports the result of the diagnosis.
動作の主体（主に受身文で）を示す。
「名」＋によって/により/による
I thought this is a printing mistake or so. I've seen による only with passive voice and します is active as far as I know. Replacing it by は would make sense again, but otherwise this sentence just confuses me not from its content but from the grammar point trying to be illustrated here with a non-passive (see the description itself.. it says passive, he) verb..
Also in this case ~による expresses the person whom did the noun, but I am guessing you already have worked that out
I think this is in the book too 電話はベルによって発明されました。 "The telephone was invented by Bell."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
SendaiDan Wrote:Ah sorry I never typed up all the sentences into excel/anki, instead I picked one sentence I liked from each grammar point and wrote it out by hand. Made for good kanji practiceYou see, I'm doing the whole thing in Anki like I did with Kanzen Master JLPT3 previously which made me having fun with grammar again. I don't like the way textbooks teach you because.. I get messed up with them so quickly and Anki is somewhat systematical.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:@YudantaitekiThe basis is the survey that was answered by fans. There's no "jury" here; 審査する means to judge, so the judgment is based on a popularity survey.
Thanks for taking time and commenting on my lines!! Sometimes just a small piece of advice opens my eyes and makes me realise my mistake. Thank you so much(<3)
Tori-kun Wrote:ファンの人気投票をもとに審査し、今年の歌のベストテンが決まります。 ???I tried translating it like: The popularity contest of fans, based on a jury, decides about this year's 10-top/best singers.
Quote:計画を立てる 【けいかくをたてる】 (exp) to make plansQuote:予定どおり終わるように計画を立ててやってください。I could not find any good translation for the 立ててやって part, unfortunately.
予定どおり終わるように - In order to finish as planned/the way the schedule [is]
Oh, I see 立てて can also mean 'especially', so, perhaps the sentence could more or less mean "In order to finish as planned/scheduled, please make especially a plan." ?
Quote:Edit: No.13In addition, to what sendaidan said, による here is modifying 診断 to tell you what kind of 診断 the results are being reported from.
医師による診断の結果を報告します。
The doctor reports the result of the diagnosis.
動作の主体（主に受身文で）を示す。
「名」＋によって/により/による
I thought this is a printing mistake or so. I've seen による only with passive voice and します is active as far as I know. Replacing it by は would make sense again, but otherwise this sentence just confuses me not from its content but from the grammar point trying to be illustrated here with a non-passive (see the description itself.. it says passive, he) verb..
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
@SendaiDan and Yudantaiteki: I can't get/follow quite your point. This is how 'far' I got with that sentence..
Taking apart the following sentence 医師による診断の結果を報告します。
診断の結果を is the object, i.e. the result of the diagnosis, which some reports (active voice): 報告する.
But I can't get my head around the confusing usage of による. It is clear to me that someone *does* actively report the diagnosis, namely the doctor. 医師による診断の結果を報告される。 would make more sense to me at least..
Edit: SendaiDan, your given example makes sense to me, perfectly.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
The subject is the speaker, whoever this is (but not the doctor). The speaker is going to report the results of the diagnosis done by (lit. "according to") the doctor.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
"According to the doctor I (nurse) will report the diagnosis." <- like this, right? 新聞によると = according to the newspaper. Why is the と omitted in the example with the doctor if it's still translated like "according to.."
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-04
よる is modifying 診断の結果 so that translation is incorrect. You can say "according to ~, ...." but then you say 〜によると. note the と
edit: I should point out that when I say よる is modifying 診断の結果, I mean it's acting like a subordinate clause, which would be placed afterwards in English. The results of the diagnosis (according to the doctor). The subordinate clause is placed before the thing it modifies in Japanese, rather than behind. I think I noticed some similar confusion about subordinate clauses in one of your other translations but I can't remember which one.
医師による診断の結果を報告します。
(I) will report the results of the doctor's diagnosis.
more literal breakdown:
(I/someone) will report 報告します the results (結果を）of (の）the diagnosis (診断）by(according to) (〜による) the doctor (医師).
You seem to be getting confused by sentence structure/order in longer sentences involving subordinate clauses and so on.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
nadiatims, I don't see a difference in my translation and yours..
(I) will report the results of the doctor's diagnosis. = According to the doctor I (f.e. nurse) will report the diagnosis.
～による works like の then?
Quote:more literal breakdown:〜によると?
(I/someone) will report 報告します the results (結果を）of (の）the diagnosis (診断）by(according to) (〜によると) the doctor (医師).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-04
tori-kun Wrote:〜によると?oops that was a typo. fixed it in the above post.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Javizy - 2011-08-04
による and によると are separate points, and "according to" in the translation makes it sound like either hearsay or "along the lines of what the doctor told you." If I was going to give a literal translation, I'd just use "the diagnosis done by the doctor."
Edit: If it helps, the note for the meaning that goes along with that point is 動作の主体（主に受け身文で）を示す。
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-04
tori-kun Wrote:nadiatims, I don't see a difference in my translation and yours..The two sentences are different. You might not be picking up the distinction in the English. You're from Germany right?
(I) will report the results of the doctor's diagnosis. = According to the doctor I (f.e. nurse) will report the diagnosis.
In your sentence "According to the doctor I (f.e. nurse) will report the diagnosis."
It sounds like someone (f.e nurse) is relaying to someone else that the doctor told them to report the results.
I see Javizy has explained it but just to further clarify:
〜によると modifies the whole clause that comes after it.
~による just modifies the next word. A verb or clause ending in a verb placed in front a noun in japanese acts as an adjective to modify that noun.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
医師による診断の結果を報告します。
I (nurse?) will report the results of the diagnosis done by the doctor.
医師によると、診断の結果を報告します。
According to the doctor, someone (the doctor?) will report the results of the diagnosis.
Grammatically, if you just have による it has to modify some noun. If it's によると it has to connect to a predicate. (The second sentence there is a little strange, I just put it there to show the difference between による and によると)
医師による診断 = The results done by/according to the doctor
マタイによる福音書 = The Gospel according to Matthew
ガイガーカウンタによる放射線量測定 = The measurement of radiation levels according to a geiger counter
The last example there may be the clearest one because a geiger counter cannot be the subject of 報告, but you could say ガイガーカウンタによる放射線量測定を報告します (I will report the measurement of radiation levels according to a geiger counter)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
Quote:Edit: If it helps, the note for the meaning that goes along with that point is 動作の主体（主に受け身文で）を示す。Usually used with passive.. yeah, that one's clear, for sure!
@nadiatims: Yeah, it's difficult for me to grasp this subtle difference in English. (German is just ways easier concerning this at least and we would not make a differenciation between those two translations. Uah, my head.)
In my translation attempt it sounds like "hearsay", so, f.e. the nurse tells the patients the diagnosis, according to what the doctor wrote down for her/told her.
@Yudantaiteki: I find it still irritating you would use "according to" in brackets if it's entirely wrong..
ガイガーカウンタによる放射線量測定を報告します
I will report the measurement of radiation levels FROM/OF geiger counter. <- possible, too?
Thank you so much _o_
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:ガイガーカウンタによる放射線量測定を報告しますI think it should be 'from' because you take readings/measurements 'from' something e.g. "I took the reading from the thermometer."
I will report the measurement of radiation levels FROM/OF geiger counter. <- possible, too?
Thank you so much _o_
For more natural sounding English I think it's better without the 'of'.
I will report the Geiger Counter's radiation level measurement(s).
I will report the radiation level measurement(s) from the Geiger Counter.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Javizy - 2011-08-04
Tori-kun Wrote:Usually used with passive.. yeah, that one's clear, for sure!It's because による is the prenominal form of によって・により. It's commonly used to mark the agent in passive structures. There are some awkward rules for when and when not to use it, which you'll find in ADIJG.
患者は医師によって診断された。
The patient was diagnosed by the doctor.
医師による診断。
The diagnosis performed by the doctor.
Tori-kun Wrote:@nadiatims: Yeah, it's difficult for me to grasp this subtle difference in English. (German is just ways easier concerning this at least and we would not make a differenciation between those two translations. Uah, my head.)I'm only going by my native sense, but 'according to the doctor' only sounds like hearsay to me. If it was 'according to the doctor's instructions' then it wouldn't be ambiguous/awkward. In either case, I'm not seeing how it relates to による. It's expressing who performed the diagnosis, not how the nurse should communicate it.
In my translation attempt it sounds like "hearsay", so, f.e. the nurse tells the patients the diagnosis, according to what the doctor wrote down for her/told her.
Edit: Maybe someone's used a literal translation from a dictionary. によって can be used in a number of contexts, and the meaning changes for each, e.g. 事情によって行動する act according to the situation, 天気によって出掛けるかも I might go out, depending on the weather.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04
@Javizy: Yeah.. I guess I got it now. Yudantaiteki's usage of "according to" was irritating. Perhaps he could change it for the other readers perhaps also having the same problem as me and using the same ressource
You were a great help!!
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
I'm sorry you found my attempts to help you "irritating". Maybe I just won't bother next time.
(To me, "according to" is ambiguous, which is why I put it in parentheses to link it more closely to the basic meaning of よる, whereas "done by" is a better translation.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2011-08-04
Javizy Wrote:Maybe someone's used a literal translation from a dictionary. によって can be used in a number of contexts, and the meaning changes for each, e.g. 事情によって行動する act according to the situation, 天気によって出掛けるかも I might go out, depending on the weather.The difficulty with using the most natural English translation for each sentence is that it can obscure the underlying commonality of meaning (ie what the Japanese actually means); so sometimes it's useful to use the same expression in the translation of a whole set of examples to try to get this across. (The disadvantage is that you can end up with some somewhat unnatural English which can be a bit confusing if you're not a native speaker I guess.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-04
Although it's tough because clearly all the よる are the same word originally but there are separate meanings:
よ・る【因る／▽拠る／▽由る／▽依る】
［動ラ五（四）］《「寄る」と同語源》
１ （因る・由る）それを原因とする。起因する。「濃霧に―・る欠航」「成功は市民の協力に―・る」
２ （依る）物事の性質や内容などに関係する。応じる。従う。「時と場合に―・る」「人に―・って感想が違う」「成功は努力いかんに―・る」
３ （依る）動作の主体をだれと指し示す。「市民楽団に―・る演奏」
４ （依る）それと限る。「だれに―・らず文句を言う」「何事に―・らず好き嫌いが多い」
５ （依る）手段とする。「機械に―・る生産」「挙手に―・る採決」
６ （依る）頼る。依存する。「信仰に―・って生きる」「年金に―・って生計を立てる」
７ （拠る）根拠とする。「実験に―・る結論」「天気予報に―・ると大雨らしい」
８ （拠る）よりどころとする。のっとる。「法律の定めるところに―・る」
９ （拠る）根拠地とする。たてこもる。「城塞に―・って戦う」
Note that 7 has both the "according to" meaning and the one being used here.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - SendaiDan - 2011-08-04
yudantaiteki Wrote:３ （依る）動作の主体をだれと指し示す。「市民楽団に―・る演奏」The 医師による診断 would also fall under this usage wouldn't it? Since it is being used to state who the person is that is performing the diagnosis.
I think the problem with this sentence is with the translation. In English you need to have a verb in there where as in Japanese you don't. So you can say 医師による診断, but in English you have to say "The diagnosis performed by the doctor" or "The diagnosis done by the doctor" or even "The doctor's diagnosis" which gives you "I will report the results of the diagnosis performed by the doctor". (Essentially they all mean the same thing.)
I guess in Japanese you could also say "医師に行われた/された診断の結果を報告します。 which would pretty much give you the same meaning