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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - jettyke - 2011-07-29

I'm getting a bit lost here.

What's the difference between these 4?
The one I always try to remember via rikaichan is the meaning "regarding smth" etc.

Is it safe to just assume that these 4 mean almost the same thing?

に関する
における
において
に対する

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Nagareboshi - 2011-07-29

Could someone please check if my translation of this sentence is correct?

人間に上下はないと考えるアメリカ人にとって、日本の目上と目下の関係は面倒だろう。
For an American who thinks that there is no higher or lower [person] human being, the relationship between superiors and subordinates in Japan will be troublesome.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-07-30

jettyke Wrote:I'm getting a bit lost here.

What's the difference between these 4?
The one I always try to remember via rikaichan is the meaning "regarding smth" etc.

Is it safe to just assume that these 4 mean almost the same thing?

に関する
における
において
に対する
No, I suppose you cannot assume them to mean all the same.. Checkout also my question thread for answers: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7688&page=3

In Kanzen Master JLPT2 I found this
～に対して（は）／～に対し
意味　～に　（相手・対象を表す）

～に関して（は）
意味　～について（の）　『類語』

における（は）／において／においても mean "in" (で　場所・時間を表す), don't they?

Quote:人間に上下はないと考えるアメリカ人にとって、日本の目上と目下の関係は面倒だろう。
For an American who thinks that there is no higher or lower [person] human being, the relationship between superiors and subordinates in Japan will be troublesome.
I would also translate it like this.. though, cannot guarantee it would be right? Tongue
I would only translate だろう differently perhaps with "is probably troublesome", since it expresses a (quite uncertain) guess.

Edit: It's a bit off-topic, but since we are talking about Kanzen2 content, does anybody know if it was translated, i mean the meanings of the sentences and put into a spreadsheet perhaps?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - dusmar84 - 2011-07-30

This is something that always gets me, the て-form plus another　て

For example,

「ハイ・トップ・フェードが流行ってて、街じゃ ラジカセ から ラキーム が 流れてたような 時代 のこと 覚えてるか？」
"Do you remember the hi-top fades, and cats walking down the street with Rakim bumpin' from the box?

"流行ってて" comes from 流行る to be popular、but the second て is from iru which has been shortened to て is that right？

I asked a similar question before about the common expression
"持ってて” hold this (item) or
"先　行ってて" go on ahead

Is it the same idea?.　ている will be the death of me!!

PS what does the じゃ in 街じゃ mean?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Nagareboshi - 2011-07-31

Tori-kun Wrote:
Nagareboshi Wrote:人間に上下はないと考えるアメリカ人にとって、日本の目上と目下の関係は面倒だろう。
For an American who thinks that there is no higher or lower [person] human being, the relationship between superiors and subordinates in Japan will be troublesome.
I would also translate it like this.. though, cannot guarantee it would be right? Tongue
I would only translate だろう differently perhaps with "is probably troublesome", since it expresses a (quite uncertain) guess.
Ha! Yes, だろう, probably, thank you! Now the sentence should be correct. Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-07-31

@dusmar: I'm not sure what じゃ means in this context, but I hear it sometimes at the beginning of a sentence, like じゃ・・・. I suppose then it means something like "well, then, so.."
Concerning the shortened いる form you're right, I think as well, but I would merely guess that じゃ expresses the same thing as は.. and were are the cats (猫)?
@Nagareboshi: Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2011-07-31

dusmar84 Wrote:「ハイ・トップ・フェードが流行ってて、街じゃ ラジカセ から ラキーム が 流れてたような 時代 のこと 覚えてるか？」
"Do you remember the hi-top fades, and cats walking down the street with Rakim bumpin' from the box?

"流行ってて" comes from 流行る to be popular、but the second て is from iru which has been shortened to て is that right？
流行ってて == 流行っていて, which is 流行っている converted to て-form to connect to the rest of the sentence. (IME usually "X is popular/in vogue" is Xが流行っている, not Xが流行る.)

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Rayath - 2011-07-31

I would say じゃ is an informal contradiction of では.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-01

I'm facing difficulties translating the sentences from Kanzen Master JLPT2, No.22 and No.23 B, here the examples. See my translating attempts for the marked phrases below.

No.22 ～かわりに
この部屋は狭いかわりに、家賃が安い。 Whereas my room is narrow, the rent is low.
わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。 Whereas I will do the cooking, please do the cleaning.

No.23 B　～くらい／ぐらい "to the extent that..."
外国語は、1か月習ったぐらいでは、上手に話せるようにはならないだろう。 ?
忙しくても電話をかけるくらいはできたでしょう。 ?
人に会ったら、あいさつぐらいしてほしい。 ?

Thanks for your help!! I found a pdf containing the translations for KM2's 意味 field, but I was wondering if there was a compiled (koohii spreadsheet perhaps?) for the sentences, also?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-01

この部屋は狭いかわりに、家賃が安い。
While this room is narrow, the rent is low.

わたしが料理するかわりに、あなたは掃除してください。
I'll do the cooking, so you do the cleaning.

外国語は、1か月習ったぐらいでは、上手に話せるようにはならないだろう。
You're not gonna be able to speak a foreign language well after learning it for just a month.

忙しくても電話をかけるくらいはできたでしょう。
Even if you were busy, you could have at least called (me/him/her).

人に会ったら、あいさつぐらいしてほしい。
When you meet someone, i want you to at least greet them.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-01

@nadiatims: Thanks for the quick help! I was thinking something along the lines what you wrote, but wasn't too sure if it was indeed right. Now I can add it to my anki deckSmile
If anyone is interested in a translation of KM2, I will make up a spreadsheet. Drop me a message with the picture of your book~

Edit: Why the bold options are the correct ones?

留学（　　）ビザの申請が必要です。
a.ともに b.したがって c. 伴って d. つれて

カーテンの生地は色々ございますが、ご予算に（　　）ものをお作りいたします。
応じて 応じては 応じ 応じた <- ???

彼女は登山家として有名であるが、（　　　）。
ここでは医者としている。 ここでは医者としてきた。
ここでは医者として働いている。 ここでは医者として仕事です。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-08-01

Tori-kun Wrote:@nadiatims: Thanks for the quick help! I was thinking something along the lines what you wrote, but wasn't too sure if it was indeed right. Now I can add it to my anki deckSmile
If anyone is interested in a translation of KM2, I will make up a spreadsheet. Drop me a message with the picture of your book~

Edit: Why the bold options are the correct ones?

留学（　　）ビザの申請が必要です。
a.ともに b.したがって c. 伴って d. つれて
It looks to me like you missed something from either the sentences or the choices, is this 学生に?

Quote:カーテンの生地は色々ございますが、ご予算に（　　）ものをお作りいたします。
応じて 応じては 応じ 応じた <- ???

彼女は登山家として有名であるが、（　　　）。
ここでは医者としている。 ここでは医者としてきた。
ここでは医者として働いている。 ここでは医者として仕事です。
I would have an easier time answering these if you explained what choice you may have thought was correct, or whether it's that you don't understand the meaning of the choice or you don't understand why some of the other ones are wrong.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-01

@Tori-kun

留学（　　）ビザの申請が必要です。
a.ともに b.したがって c. 伴って d. つれて

the answer to this question lies in the definition of 伴う. したがう means to obey or follow (rules etc). つれて means something like "as" or "in proportion to" eg:
人口が増えるにつれて複雑な社会問題が起きてくる。As population increases complicated societal problems occur.
とともに is similar to 伴って, but I think it tends to be used with concrete nouns, eg, 家族とともに and so on rather than used for co-occuring events such as studying abroad (abstract nouns), for which 伴う would be used instead. Maybe someone can explain it more clearly.

カーテンの生地は色々ございますが、ご予算に（　　）ものをお作りいたします。
応じて 応じては 応じ 応じた <- ???

it's 応じた because it is modifying もの.　ご予算に応じたもの, one/something fitting/suiting your budget.

彼女は登山家として有名であるが、（　　　）。
ここでは医者としている。 ここでは医者としてきた。
ここでは医者として働いている。 ここでは医者として仕事です。

As far as I can tell here ここでは医者として働いている is the only option that appears grammatically correct.
ここでは医者としている should be ここでは医者をしている.
ここでは医者として仕事です should probably be ここでは医者としての仕事をしている.
ここでは医者としてきた should be ここでは医者として働いてきた or some such.

Basically the question is testing if you understand the difference between 〜として, a set construction with rough meaning "as ~" and the verb する.
She is famous as a mountain climber but here she is working as a doctor.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-02

@yudantaiteki: Yes, I forgot of course the に. Then it makes the first choice, a.ともに, impossible, as it's usually ~と共に, isn't it? <- clear, thanks.
@nadiatims: Thanks for the explanations of each item. I could find myself a few answers already in a book, f.e.

～応じた
[名１]に応じた[名２]
Is used between two nouns. <- ok, clear.

～として
That confused me a bit, because I did understand the meaning of this set construction and thought the following variant would be also correct:

彼女は登山家として有名であるが、（　　　）。
ここでは医者としてきた。 <- [...] but she came here as a doctor.
Basically, i couldn't decide between those two, the correct answer you gave and which is also listed as correct in the back of the book and the option you can see above.

Edit: Ok, found the explanation by myself.
いる requires には. "to come to" also, and in the last option a の is missing in front of the noun..
×ここでは医者としている。　　　　　ここには医者としている…OK
×ここでは医者としてきた。　　　　　ここには（or ここへは）医者として来た…OK
×ここでは医者として仕事です。　　これは医者としての仕事です…OK

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-02

tori-kun Wrote:×ここでは医者としている。　　　　　ここには医者としている…OK
I may be wrong on this one, but even with には, "ここには医者としている。" seems weird to me and I can't imagine a japanese person ever saying it. here, I am as a doctor. ? I am here as a doctor (but not in other places)?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-02

@nadiatims: I was given this corrections by a native speaker from lang-8.com I fully entrust. No worry, it's correct, it seems Smile

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-03

Hey, everybody! This sentence (grammar: ～まい) troubles me: 彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2011-08-03

彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
Just replace 言うまい with 言わない

"It seems like he is thinking of saying nothing"

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-03

〜まい makes the negative volitional form. So "彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。"
means something like "It seems he's not intending to say anything."

edit: I see pudding cat got in before me. volitional form is the one ending in ou btw. 言おう、食べよう、遊ぼう etc.

edit2:
pudding cat Wrote:Just replace 言うまい with 言わない
In this case they may equate, but the two forms are not equivalent. Because まい makes the negative volitional form it can be used to make suppositions (is this even a word?)
eg:
相手は剣の達人だ。そう簡単には勝てまい

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-03

pudding cat Wrote:彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
Just replace 言うまい with 言わない

"It seems like he is thinking of saying nothing"
I thought the ~と思っているらしい part implies "I think..", so something from first-person?

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2011-08-03

Tori-kun Wrote:
pudding cat Wrote:彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
Just replace 言うまい with 言わない

"It seems like he is thinking of saying nothing"
I thought the ~と思っているらしい part implies "I think..", so something from first-person?
The 思っている part is refering to 彼 (person A), and the sentence is spoken by another person (person B). If 思っている was "I think..." then the らしい would also apply to person B so it would be "It seems like I think he won't say anything." which doesn't really make any sense.

Basically
彼は何も言うまいと思っている = He is thinking of saying nothing
彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい = It seems (to me) like he is thinking of saying nothing.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pudding cat - 2011-08-03

pudding cat Wrote:彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
Just replace 言うまい with 言わない

"It seems like he is thinking of saying nothing"
Upon closer inspection on a grammar book I'd like to revise this!
verb stem + まい　＝　絶対に~しない　or 絶対に～しないだろう　so it's stronger than 言わない

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - iSoron - 2011-08-03

pudding cat Wrote:彼は何も言うまいと思っているらしい。
It seems that [she] thinks that he probably won't say anything.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nadiatims - 2011-08-04

It seem to me that devoid of any context both interpretations can be correct.

The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tori-kun - 2011-08-04

Thanks all of you for the little 'discussion' and clarification. As you can see I'm working through the Kanzen Master deck in Anki and try to find a more or less appropriate translation for every given sentence in order to illustrate the usage of the grammar point better. Below you can see sentences I marked and tried finding a translation for, but was unsure. Any help is greatly appreciated. I'm thinking of opening a new spreadsheet/thread, where interested people can contribute and exchange questions concerning especially this topic, as it's blowing up the "What's this word/phrase?" thread slightly Tongue

ファンの人気投票をもとに審査し、今年の歌のベストテンが決まります。 ???

仲のいい友達と旅行するほど楽しいことはない。
There is not a better thing than travelling together with a good friend.

一人っ子なものだから、わがままに育ててしまいました。
Because [she] is the only child, she was raised わがまま/selfishly?

予定どおり終わるように計画を立ててやってください。
In order to finish the way the schedule is, please make a plan (the 立ててやって part is difficult here for me)???

新しくできたレストランは値段も安ければ味もいいと評判です。
Only if the newly opened/made restaurant has a cheap price as well as a good taste (in their dishes), it's reputation (評判 is confusing me. Is it an adjective here? I thought it only existed as a noun.)

建設的なご意見でさえあれば、どんな小さなものでも大歓迎です。
Only if it's a constructive opinion (view, perhaps better), whatever little things can also be a warm welcome (warmly welcome).

一人でやるのは大変ですが、みんな忙しそうなので、手伝ってもらうわけにもいきません。
(I know) it's hard doing it on your own, but since seemingly everybody is busy (including me?), I can't help you either (にも, right?)
(ok, who can/can't/must/mustn't help whom? lol The わけにもいきません part troubles me)

あんなやせた人が、相撲とりのわけがない。
I have no expectation that such a thin person, ???

インスタントラーメンはお湯を入れさえすれば食べられる便利な食品だ。
Even if you only need to put instant ramen in hot water, it is a convenient and edible (?) food (or: food one/you can eat. It's potential isn't it?)

たとえお世辞でも、子供をほめられれば親はうれしいものだ。
Even if it's just a compliment, parents, if they praise/commend their child(ren) are happy (beings). ??

道が込みさえしなければ、駅までタクシーで１０分ぐらい。
Only if the road(s) is not crowded, you will make it till the station with a taxy in about 10 minutes.

言葉さえ共通なら、お互いにもっとコミュニケーションがよくできたでしょう。
???

いいことをした人に対し、表彰状が贈られる。
???