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The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2011-06-07
Hey guys, could someone help me clear up this sentence?
「お前が教授《プロフェッサー》を呼んでくるしかねぇよ、トゥイードルディ。俺ぁ、勝手に外部に回線を開いたりして、廃棄処分にされたかないからな」
It looks like you're going to have to call the professor, Tweedledee. That's because if I do things like connecting to the outside line without permission I might get scrapped.
What is going on in that conjugation? Is it just された か ない （か） から な with the second か omitted?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
FooSoft Wrote:Hey guys, could someone help me clear up this sentence?Context?
「お前が教授《プロフェッサー》を呼んでくるしかねぇよ、トゥイードルディ。俺ぁ、勝手に外部に回線を開いたりして、廃棄処分にされたかないからな」
It looks like you're going to have to call the professor, Tweedledee. That's because if I do things like connecting to the outside line without permission I might get scrapped.
What is going on in that conjugation? Is it just された か ない （か） から な with the second か omitted?
According to KNP (which is never perfect), it's された かない から な ...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - fakewookie - 2011-06-07
tylerdevlin Wrote:I saw this phrase and translation in my textbook:http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/teform
成績はどんどん良くなっていった。
My grades rapidly improved.
I was wondering how the "いく" part of "なっていった" changes the meaning of the sentence. I don't think that the given translation captures the entire meaning of the phrase. All help is appreciated.
Check the section "Using motion verbs".
nest0r Wrote:From Rikaichan:いった =/= ita
良くなって 良くなる よくなる (exp,v5r,uk) to become better; to improve
ていった form can also mean ‘had done the action’ (see JMW p. 153), e.g.:
“the past form kiite ita can be either ‘was/were listening [at a particular time]’ or ‘had heard [before then]’... ”
(Another example in that section is 読んでいた can mean either ‘was reading [at a particular time]’ or ‘had read [before then]’, depending on context.)
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
fakewookie Wrote:@fakewookie - Are you referring to what I wrote? I think it's obvious it was just a typo resulting from the (what I assume to be typo'd) original sentence. I did it twice, fixed the other already. Sorry if it confused you and caused you to waste your time quoting my whole comment just for a short notation.tylerdevlin Wrote:I saw this phrase and translation in my textbook:http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/teform
成績はどんどん良くなっていった。
My grades rapidly improved.
I was wondering how the "いく" part of "なっていった" changes the meaning of the sentence. I don't think that the given translation captures the entire meaning of the phrase. All help is appreciated.
Check the section "Using motion verbs".
nest0r Wrote:From Rikaichan:いった =/= ita
良くなって 良くなる よくなる (exp,v5r,uk) to become better; to improve
ていった form can also mean ‘had done the action’ (see JMW p. 153), e.g.:
“the past form kiite ita can be either ‘was/were listening [at a particular time]’ or ‘had heard [before then]’... ”
(Another example in that section is 読んでいた can mean either ‘was reading [at a particular time]’ or ‘had read [before then]’, depending on context.)
If you're referring to the original, I don't think it was て行く, though I could be wrong. Are you saying otherwise? I actually thought the いく part of the comment was a misreading of 良く on the original poster's part, also. ;p
But for て行く in general, that's on p. 203 of JMW.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tylerdevlin - 2011-06-07
Sorry, but I still don't completely understand.
It was definitely "ていった" in the book so either that's a typo, or nest0r is wrong.
I checked out the Tae Kim link but he only cited two examples and in both of them the "ていく" part was in the present tense. I have trouble grasping the meaning of this construction when it's in the past tense. How can there be a progression towards the future, in the past. Wouldn't it be a progression towards the present and therefore use "てくる"?
Again, I apologize if this is something really trivial or obvious but I just can't get a handle on it.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
tylerdevlin Wrote:Sorry, but I still don't completely understand.I'm not saying it can't be ていった, just that I didn't think it was, so I read it as ていた and looked up that point. Looks like the relevant pages are omitted from Google's preview of JMW, so here's another applicable bit: http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson-e32.htm - I think the very bottom could apply here, I just didn't think it likely, it seems weird to me to talk about one's grades this way without prior context.
It was definitely "ていった" in the book so either that's a typo, or nest0r is wrong.
I checked out the Tae Kim link but he only cited two examples and in both of them the "ていく" part was in the present tense. I have trouble grasping the meaning of this construction when it's in the past tense. How can there be a progression towards the future, in the past. Wouldn't it be a progression towards the present and therefore use "てくる"?
Again, I apologize if this is something really trivial or obvious but I just can't get a handle on it.
Also, if you Google that construction, you get more hits from ている form (i.e. 良くなっていた), so that made me more certain (I think the ていく instances were less [inter]personal or somesuch).
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2011-06-07
tylerdevlin Wrote:I checked out the Tae Kim link but he only cited two examples and in both of them the "ていく" part was in the present tense. I have trouble grasping the meaning of this construction when it's in the past tense. How can there be a progression towards the future, in the past. Wouldn't it be a progression towards the present and therefore use "てくる"?Rather than thinking of it as 'progression towards the future', it's probably better to think of it as 'progression away from the reference time point'. So (to pick an example from the DoBJG) その頃から日本の経済は強くなって行った "the Japanese economy grew stronger from that point on" -- here the continuing change is relative to 'その頃'. DoBJG also says that the いく versions are generally more impersonal than the くる ones in cases where you could use either, which makes sense.
Obviously "now" is a really common choice of reference point, which is why ていく in the present tense and てきた in the past tense are so prevalent.
@nest0r: if you think a sentence has a typo in it, it's probably less confusing to start your answer with "I think that's a typo for foo" before providing a pile of references to foo...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
pm215 Wrote:Huh? FooSoft had a typo too? And thank you Captain Hindsight, except I don't think what you're saying makes sense in this context. ^_^ If I'd noticed it when writing the comment, which was primarily about ていた and so is obviously interpreting the example as ていた, then I would've fixed my mindless copying of ていった at the onset, or asked for clarification. I don't understand what weird logic would cause someone to read my comment and think anything other than I had read the sentence as ていた. But that's just me, if I see a big piece of text that indicates a sentence is being read one way, and only one indicator (the ていった at the onset) that it's being read another, I'll assume there's been a small brain glitch and point out the original's ていった and not ていた. I wouldn't assume the commenter had confused the forms and concepts of ていた and ていった... that would be a bizarre assumption to me, but I don't know how other people think. ^_^tylerdevlin Wrote:I checked out the Tae Kim link but he only cited two examples and in both of them the "ていく" part was in the present tense. I have trouble grasping the meaning of this construction when it's in the past tense. How can there be a progression towards the future, in the past. Wouldn't it be a progression towards the present and therefore use "てくる"?Rather than thinking of it as 'progression towards the future', it's probably better to think of it as 'progression away from the reference time point'. So (to pick an example from the DoBJG) その頃から日本の経済は強くなって行った "the Japanese economy grew stronger from that point on" -- here the continuing change is relative to 'その頃'. DoBJG also says that the いく versions are generally more impersonal than the くる ones in cases where you could use either, which makes sense.
Obviously "now" is a really common choice of reference point, which is why ていく in the present tense and てきた in the past tense are so prevalent.
@nest0r: if you think a sentence has a typo in it, it's probably less confusing to start your answer with "I think that's a typo for foo" before providing a pile of references to foo...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2011-06-07
Oh, right. When you said "the (what I assume to be typo'd) original sentence" I took that to mean that you had been and were still working on the (conscious) assumption that the original sentence had a typo...
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
Yeah I should've put ‘now’ in front of assume, when I look at it (and perhaps connected it more to the second paragraph where I was mitigating that assumption). It still seems weird to me as ていった though, like I wish I knew how the textbook examples were structured. Are they a series of related sentences? Or am I reading too into it retroactively, due to my inexperience with ていった being used this way, and thinking it needs more context than it does? It didn't occur to me as ていった at all till @fakewookie took the sentence at face value.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - pm215 - 2011-06-07
I know what you mean; it does sound just slightly odd to me as well, taken as a single 'example' sentence without context.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - fakewookie - 2011-06-07
There's nothing weird about it at all. It means "my grades continued to improve", or something to that effect. So maybe they started improving last month and continued improving for a few weeks.
tylerdevlin Wrote:It was definitely "ていった" in the book so either that's a typo, or nest0r is wrong.The latter :p
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - tylerdevlin - 2011-06-07
pm215 Wrote:I know what you mean; it does sound just slightly odd to me as well, taken as a single 'example' sentence without context.Unfortunately no context is provided. ていく／ていった isn't even the what they're trying to highlight in the sentence. The sentence is there to provide an example for the usage of どんどん.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
fakewookie Wrote:There's nothing weird about it at all. It means "my grades continued to improve", or something to that effect. So maybe they started improving last month and continued improving for a few weeks.@fakewookie - Uh huh. By the way, did you used to post on this forum under a different name?
tylerdevlin Wrote:It was definitely "ていった" in the book so either that's a typo, or nest0r is wrong.The latter :p
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-07
tylerdevlin Wrote:Check this out: http://books.google.com/books?id=-02o0sSJO68C&lpg=PA173&ots=zzH7_aumBF&dq=%22yoku%20natte%20itta%22&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q=%22yoku%20natte%20itta%22&f=false - Your texbook's example is definitely a little hinky.pm215 Wrote:I know what you mean; it does sound just slightly odd to me as well, taken as a single 'example' sentence without context.Unfortunately no context is provided. ていく／ていった isn't even the what they're trying to highlight in the sentence. The sentence is there to provide an example for the usage of どんどん.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-06-07
I don't think there's anything wrong with the example, it just lacks the necessary context to see the use of いった. It would fit in a situation where you're telling a story about things that happened in the past.
その年、やっと眼鏡ができた。いきなり先生の黒板に書いたことは全部読めるようになった。それから、成績はどんどん良くなっていった。
Or something like that.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - fakewookie - 2011-06-07
If いった isn't what it's trying to show I guess it assumes that you already know what it means.
nest0r Wrote:Yeah, this is my new(er) account.fakewookie Wrote:There's nothing weird about it at all. It means "my grades continued to improve", or something to that effect. So maybe they started improving last month and continued improving for a few weeks.@fakewookie - Uh huh. By the way, did you used to post on this forum under a different name?
tylerdevlin Wrote:It was definitely "ていった" in the book so either that's a typo, or nest0r is wrong.The latter :p
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - thurd - 2011-06-08
Seems like now there is something that has the same function as this thread but is also more clear, better organized and easier to search.
http://japanese.stackexchange.com/
If you do some programming you know how useful Stack Exchange/Stack Overflow can be, this could also be huge.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - nest0r - 2011-06-08
nest0r Wrote:I see it's from Mardock Scramble: The Second Combustion. Even with context I can't figure this one out, makes me realize how much I suck at Japanese. I would probably treat it as か (question) ない (negative) から (since/because) (な).FooSoft Wrote:Hey guys, could someone help me clear up this sentence?Context?
「お前が教授《プロフェッサー》を呼んでくるしかねぇよ、トゥイードルディ。俺ぁ、勝手に外部に回線を開いたりして、廃棄処分にされたかないからな」
It looks like you're going to have to call the professor, Tweedledee. That's because if I do things like connecting to the outside line without permission I might get scrapped.
What is going on in that conjugation? Is it just された か ない （か） から な with the second か omitted?
According to KNP (which is never perfect), it's された かない から な ...
Edit: Could it be a transcription/OCR error and it's actually されたくない?
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - yudantaiteki - 2011-06-08
I think されたくない is a good guess; I didn't respond to that post because I couldn't figure out what it meant either.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - FooSoft - 2011-06-08
nest0r Wrote:Yeah, I was going to say, the context for that sentence is a bit difficult. It's a cyber-augmented dolphin asking his gay human boyfriend if he would go and ask the professor to get permission to use the super computer (which is actually a swimming pool) to dig up some data on a killer's pastnest0r Wrote:I see it's from Mardock Scramble: The Second Combustion. Even with context I can't figure this one out, makes me realize how much I suck at Japanese. I would probably treat it as か (question) ない (negative) から (since/because) (な).FooSoft Wrote:Hey guys, could someone help me clear up this sentence?Context?
「お前が教授《プロフェッサー》を呼んでくるしかねぇよ、トゥイードルディ。俺ぁ、勝手に外部に回線を開いたりして、廃棄処分にされたかないからな」
It looks like you're going to have to call the professor, Tweedledee. That's because if I do things like connecting to the outside line without permission I might get scrapped.
What is going on in that conjugation? Is it just された か ない （か） から な with the second か omitted?
According to KNP (which is never perfect), it's された かない から な ...
Edit: Could it be a transcription/OCR error and it's actually されたくない?
The thought that it could be an OCR error had occurred to me, but usually that only happens with kanji, but it's possible that sometimes it happens with hiragana as well (or maybe just a typo). I kind of broke it up like you did, but I haven't seen grammar used like that so I was curious if it was some sort of pattern.
Edit: Really fun series of books. Definitely a step up in difficulty from 1Q84 but I love cyberpunk
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tolerence91 - 2011-06-08
香具師 やし (n) showman; charlatan; faker; quack
香具師 こうぐし(n) master perfume maker
Why is this 2 words?
Why does the first word have 2 kana, yet 3 kanji. strangest thing I've seen thus far O_O
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tzadeck - 2011-06-08
Tolerence91 Wrote:香具師 やし (n) showman; charlatan; faker; quackSeems like both words refer to strange showmen or merchants who perform in public spaces, and both have the same conotation (in other words, your dictionary was wrong to give them different meanings). Since those showmen are often quacks or fakers, the word can also refer to that. One thing they commonly used to make is perfume, hence the 'master perfume maker' meaning.
香具師 こうぐし(n) master perfume maker
Why is this 2 words?
Why does the first word have 2 kana, yet 3 kanji. strangest thing I've seen thus far O_O
こうぐし is the older, original pronunciation for the characters (literally coming from perfume こうぐ and master し). But, today it is not commonly used (try typing it into Windows IME--those characters don't come up for me).
The pronunciation やし comes from other characters that mean the same thing. People aren't sure which, but it's probably originally from either 薬師, 弥四, or 野士 (they are all pronounced やし in this context). Or it might be an abbreviation of 山師 (やまし). In other words, people started using new kanji for an older kanji combination, even though the pronunciation is only two mora.
When I looked it up I also read that やし is often used instead of 奴 on 2chan.
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Tolerence91 - 2011-06-09
@Tzadeck fascinating! thank you for taking the time to explain, and look it up for me
The "What's this word/phrase?" thread - Elenkis - 2011-06-10
Hey guys, just want to get some clarification about the following sentence:
寝ているホームレスの人のそばを、近くの会社で働いている人が毎日急いで通ります。
Am I correct in thinking that the を particle is used as it's effectively marking a location for 通る because it's a motion verb, even though it's intransitive?
So it basically says something like: "Every day, people working at nearby companies hurriedly pass by beside sleeping homeless people."
Thanks!