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Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Printable Version

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Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Mesqueeb - 2009-06-08

Hello,
Finished RTK, doing AJATT.
I have until now around 500 facts in my anki deck. Sentences from Manga mainly.
I have only cards: kana sentence -> write out kanji.
BUT I have this problem that when I see a compound irl, I can't recall the reading, but when I am doing my sentence reps, I have no problem to write the kanji from the hiragana.
Will this go away with time? Or should I add "recognition" cards? (kanji -> kana)

Thank you.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Squintox - 2009-06-08

Everyone has to do recognition. Production is optional. You're doing it wrong Tongue

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Mesqueeb - 2009-06-08

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/chinese-project-notes-8-ch-ch-changes-stuff-that-applies-to-japanese-too

This made me do production cards only in the first place.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-08

I didn't read the whole thing cause it's TL;DR and I hate his verbose writing style (get to the point plz).

True, production only is undoubtably more effective than recognition only. The problem is that it takes WAY more time. Somewhere around 15x longer to do reviews (going by an estimate that it would take about 30 seconds to recognize and write out a sentence, and my current average of 2 seconds per card). It turns a few minute review session into several hours of cramped hands.

I don't think the extra time required is equal to the improvement in memorization.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Sleepyhead - 2009-06-08

I'm in a somewhat similar position as OP (ie. finished RTK, at 260~ sentences at the moment, most being from manga), but so far all I've done is recognition. So far, this has worked pretty ok, since I don't spend too much time reviewing, yet it's easier to read furigana-less Japanese, as well as feeling less like studying.
I started doing this because I just wanted to get a hang of the language before anything else. It just felt more correct to go this way, since I don't want the SRS to feel like study, and I'll have more fun this way (the whole point of AJATT is to have fun.. in Japanese).

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - blackmacros - 2009-06-08

I'm also in about the same place as the OP, except

You've been adding production cards (kana-->kanji)
You find it easy to write the kanji from the kana
You find it difficult to recall the reading from the kanji

I've been adding recognition cards (kanji-->kana)
I find it easy to recall the reading from the kanji
I find it difficult to write the kanji from just kana/audio

I think these results should come as no surprise, really; you become good at what you practice. If you want to be able to recall kanji-->reading, you're going to need to add cards that test that. I think the reason it worked for Katz is because he started doing it when he was already good at Japanese, and therefore more familiar with which sounds generally correspond to which kanji. But it doesn't seem to be working for you, so give somethig else a shot Wink

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Codexus - 2009-06-08

Reading should be trained first. It doesn't make sense to waste time to practice writing things you barely know.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - jreaves - 2009-06-08

Historically I've always done recognition, but with KO I've been doing production (kana + audio -> kanji). At the very least, I repeat the sentence a few times and state the Heisig keywords for the newer/less familiar kanji. Sometimes, especially when seeing a sentence for the first time, I write out several of the compounds. I rarely write out the whole sentence. This takes only marginally longer than recognition.

I find this method effective as it forces me to slow down and pay attention to the individual kanji as well as the sentence as a whole. It puts more focus on the audio too (it can be on both sides of the card), which is nice when you have native audio available. My ability to recognize the kanji, when going the other direction, does not seem to be suffering, though I've recently created a separate deck of individual words that go kanji -> kana + Heisig keyword (used Chasen for this) for reinforcement. I use these cards for quick stuyding on the go, particularly in situations where I don't want to speak out loud (at work, for instance).

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Tobberoth - 2009-06-08

You should only do production if you NEED production skills... for example, if you're in a class and have tests. Or if you live in Japan and need to output right away. In all other situations, you should use ALL your effort and energy to become really good at recognition, that will let you read books and such; improve your exposure. That should always be your main goal. What good is being able to say some basic sentences compared to being able to read Japanese news?

Output is very important, but it can wait. Recognition can't.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Nukemarine - 2009-06-08

To the original poster: Since you're noting your problem is with recognition, then do both Recognition (what you're not doing now) and Dictation (what you are doing now) cards. I assume you're using Anki so it's no stretch to create both.

Since it's been noted here that Recognition is by far the faster of the two, you'll not add too much to your work load.

Personally, I don't recommend dictating the entire sentence. Heck, you don't even have to write it if you use Anki's typing answer feature. Find your groove, and adapt as you see problems.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Mesqueeb - 2009-06-08

I will try copying my deck and make the copy only recognition cards. I can then see how my reading skills of my current cards really are now. I agree that it might be more helpful if I only do recognition because, it's what you use more. But I do live in Japan, and I do have tests here, and have a lot of situations where I need to write things... So I am afraid that if I start only doing recognition I'll become really really bad in writing... Arrrrrrr... So for the time being, try doing both, and see how it goes.

-Mesqueeb (OP)

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Mesqueeb - 2009-06-09

I can't believe it..........

I saved my deck as a version 2, and made all cards recognition cards... I did at a super fast pace 100 cards in 30 minutes!!! (more than twice as fast as normal)

I realised some things:

I was able to read better than I expected. Because it are the cards I made myself, and eventually after doing a lot of production, I guess recognition comes on its own......
When I read something I have more difficulty recalling the reading I think because it's in different context and stuff, but I think that it goes away after just a lot of exposure.

PRO - It goes A LOT faster.
CON - I felt like I was just reading the kanji correctly because I know how to read them. So I went super fast over sentences, but I wasn't bothering to grasp the meaning of the sentence anymore... So I feel like I don't know the meaning of any sentence I just reviewd, because it went too fast.
CON - I have unconciously reading practice every day, since I see kanji everywhere, all the time. I will have reading practice just by living here in Japan, and reading a lot of things. So I think it's eventually better to do the writing practice with anki, and the reading skills become better by reading a lot.

Finally an
ANEKDOTE:
My teacher came to look at my anki program, and was intrigued when I explained the question answer mechanism. So the question which was being shown had this word:
そくとう (= instant answer to something 即答)
I wrote the sentence down in Kanji, but said that I forgot how to write そくとう. So before hitting the "show answer" button he said: "It's the same as instant ramen! it's this: 既答" AND HE WROTE IT DOWN LIKE THAT.
I didn't press 'show answer' until after he left, and was shocked to find a normal teacher writing something simple like that wrong.............

I don't want to become like that later. So I want to keep on practicing reading I think. ^^

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - Mesqueeb - 2009-07-10

My weekend are a hell. If I am packed from early in the morning until I go to sleep I can't do my reviews and a hell opens on Monday morning. I have had this hell for 3 times now. Each time taking about 4 days recovering from a weekend.
-_-

So after long thinking I switched over to recognition only anyway. It goes a lot faster.
Ah well...........

At least I have a JapaneseRTK deck now with 1800 cards with production. So I hope that will save me out.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - yukamina - 2009-07-10

Mesqueeb Wrote:CON - I felt like I was just reading the kanji correctly because I know how to read them.
...Isn't that the point?

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - mafried - 2009-07-10

yukamina Wrote:
Mesqueeb Wrote:CON - I felt like I was just reading the kanji correctly because I know how to read them.
...Isn't that the point?
The point is to understand the meaning of the sentence. I found the same problem with doing reading-only. One of the reasons I do production-only now.

Should I make 2 cards of a fact, or 1? - vosmiura - 2009-07-10

Mesqueeb, you may feel that way about recognition only (i.e. not paying much attention) because you already have done all those sentences in production.

I've only been doing recognition. I'm sure production would have a stronger effect, but at the expense of a lot more effort. Reading is a priority over writing for me.