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Japanese Pronunciation - Musashi - 2009-06-05
While Japanese is not a difficult language to pronounce I find myself sometimes struggling with certain sounds namely:
を which should be pronounced as 'wo' with the w, somehow it often comes out as 'o'
ふ which is pronounced 'fu' but the f is unlike an English f, kinda a combo of f and h like blowing air, the upper teeth don't touch the lips like an English f
られる r sounds are not really rolling r's (like most european r's, cept British) but also not L sounds, also kinda a combination of the two. single r sounds in a word I can manage easily, but multiple ones like られる I get tongue tied sometimes
ぎ often when it follows another kana it is pronounced as a rather nose sound rather than a clear 'gi', I still can't really get used to it
Though my Japanese friends do say my pronunciation is きれい and 日本人ポイ, nevertheless it's still difficult (ok not THAT difficult hehe). Anyone also experiencing pronunciation problems?
*btw I love those 方言(is it?) superrr rolling Japanese R's, it's so awesome!
EDIT: yea in my head it was all 'g' sounds, somehow I only wrote ぎ
Japanese Pronunciation - uberstuber - 2009-06-05
I was told を is like 'o' most of the time, and 'wo' sometimes. That's what I hear too.
Japanese r is a flap, not rolling.
Its not just ぎ、all (I think) of the g sounds can be changed to a nasal (like english 'ng') when not starting a word. I think its most noticeable in が when used to mean 'but'
Another interesting thing I didn't notice for a while is the lips aren't rounded when making う sounds.
Japanese Pronunciation - Tobberoth - 2009-06-05
Antoher extremely common nasal g is りんご.
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
I know a little about each mora you mentioned. Of course, I'm not a qualified teacher or anything, so please take the following cum grano salis:
を is almost always pronounced お. I don't think English has the exact same sound, but the first vowel in "over" sounds like お+う to my ears; you probably pronounce お and then glide into soft う when you say "Oh!". I think the simplest way of pronouncing お and を is cutting off the latter half of "o" in "over" while trying to keep your mouse half closed. My mouse opens wider when I say "Oh!" than when I pronounce "おぅ！" in Japanese.
を is often pronounced "wo" in J-pop songs. Actually a lot of phonemes such as "t" in J-pop are pronounced differently than in usual speech. The reason behind this is rather complicated, so I omit the detail.
About h-series (はひふへほ), technically there are three types of consonants. は,へ, and ほ sound similar to English "h" to me. It's quite difficult to explain the consonant in ひ because English doesn't seem to have a similar sound. But if your Japanese friends say your ひ is natural, then it should be perfect.
I heard the consonant in ふ was a rare phoneme most languages didn't have. It's similar to the sound you make when you blow out a candle. It might help you get the feel of it if you try to blow out a candle very very softly while pronouncing う.
As for r-series, the range of the Japanese "r" is quite wide. Technically it has many free allophones, so you may not have to worry about it. If you're not familiar with the term "allophone," these wikipedia articles may help: allophone and free variation. Multilingual Japanese may notice idiosyncratic "r" sounds, but most monolingual Japanese can't hear the difference between English "r" and "l" in the first place...
The Japanese "g" consonant has two different sounds. Actually some native Japanese speakers regard the two sounds as two distinct phonemes. But it's regional, and many young Japanese ignore the difference. If you want to differentiate them, use nasal "g" when you say が, ぎ, ぐ, げ or ご in the middle of a phrase, at the end of a phrase, or が as a particle. When "g" is the beginning of a phrase, it's the clearer "g". It's very difficult for me to explain what is considered a "phrase." Native Japanese speakers can "feel" if it's considered a single phrase or not. It's often said "phrase" is the same as grammatical 文節 in Japanese grammar, but there are lots of exceptions, e.g., 日本銀行（にほんぎんこう）, which looks like a single word, is considered two phrases when it comes to nasal/clear "g".
Anyway, most of the time it's just whether or not "g" is in the middle of a word except when it's the particle が. For example, 学校（がっこう）is pronounced by using clearer "g" while you use nasal "g" when you say これが鉛筆です（これ が えんぴつ です）and 菅原さん（すがわらさん）. By the way, すがわら is a common family name and a canonical example of nasal "g". Some people think it's rude to use clearer "g" in a person's name when it should be nasal, though kids these days don't care about it...
Hope this will help.
Edit: fixed lots of typos/errors. Oh ma English grammah... orz
Japanese Pronunciation - Codexus - 2009-06-05
I had never noticed all those subtle differences ._.
Japanese Pronunciation - shadysaint - 2009-06-05
I've noticed the "r" sound can also be more like a "d", especially after an "n"
Japanese Pronunciation - nac_est - 2009-06-05
magamo Wrote:It's quite difficult to explain the consonant in ひ because English doesn't seem to have a similar sound. But if your Japanese friends say your ひ is natural, then it should be perfect.Some people (I'm thinking for example of 松本人志) almost "hiss" the ひ, so that ひとり sounds almost like しとり. It's probably a regional thing, right?
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
nac_est Wrote:Some people pronounce ひ and し similarly, and it's both regional and personal in a sense. The two sounds are very similar in some dialects, and some people just don't pronounce them like others. Kids tend to do it, so I'm guessing ひ and し are intrinsically similar in the Japanese language. Actually if you always pronounce ひ like し, you could sound like a little kid.magamo Wrote:It's quite difficult to explain the consonant in ひ because English doesn't seem to have a similar sound. But if your Japanese friends say your ひ is natural, then it should be perfect.Some people (I'm thinking for example of 松本人志) almost "hiss" the ひ, so that ひとり sounds almost like しとり. It's probably a regional thing, right?
I can't remember if 松本人志 pronounces ひ and し almost the same way, but the Kansai dialect does differentiate the two. So if his ひ and し are overly similar, then I think it's his personality trait rather than a regional accent.
By the way, I googled videos of his Japanese and found this vid. Obviously 小倉優子 pronounces every single phoneme through her nose. Her pronunciation is far from the "correct" one, but it doesn't mean she sounds like a foreigner. Rhythm and intonation seem more important to me.
Japanese Pronunciation - Musashi - 2009-06-05
nac_est Wrote:Some people (I'm thinking for example of 松本人志) almost "hiss" the ひ, so that ひとり sounds almost like しとり. It's probably a regional thing, right?I tried it and omg, that's so true, it does sound like しとり a bit.
Japanese Pronunciation - Tobberoth - 2009-06-05
magamo Wrote:Obviously 小倉優子 pronounces every single phoneme through her nose. Her pronunciation is far from the "correct" one, but it doesn't mean she sounds like a foreigner. Rhythm and intonation seem more important to me.Haha, that's so cute. Would probably get horribly irritating after a while though.
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
Tobberoth Wrote:It would never irritate me. Ever.magamo Wrote:Obviously 小倉優子 pronounces every single phoneme through her nose. Her pronunciation is far from the "correct" one, but it doesn't mean she sounds like a foreigner. Rhythm and intonation seem more important to me.Haha, that's so cute. Would probably get horribly irritating after a while though.
Japanese Pronunciation - cangy - 2009-06-05
magamo Wrote:を is often pronounced "wo" in J-pop songs. Actually a lot of phonemes such as "t" in J-pop are pronounced differently than in usual speech. The reason behind this is rather complicated, so I omit the detail.oh, how about a brief summary then?
Japanese Pronunciation - TaylorSan - 2009-06-05
About the "r"
Is there a masculine/feminine tendency with this? For a word like ビール, I'm noticing when I shadow the men use a more "du" sound, and the ladies use a more "lu" sound. It seems like I've heard it with other words too (can't think of examples off the top of my head). Are there any gender pronunciation tendencies you can enlighten us about (I'm making it a point in my studies NOT to fall into the common "gaijin learned all his Japanese from his girl friend" trap").
Japanese Pronunciation - killeralgae - 2009-06-05
If it is any help ふ is closer to the Greek φ than the Roman f.
Japanese Pronunciation - yukkuri_kame - 2009-06-05
Obasan living in U.S. goes to the eye doctor:
Obasan: アイ カント シ エニシング。
Doctor: It seems you have cataracts.
Obasan: ノ。アイ ドント ハブ カジラク
Doctor: Yes, I am certain you have cataracts
Obasan: ノ。アイ ドント ハブ カジラク．アイ ハブ リンコンコンチネンタル。
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
cangy Wrote:I'm no expert on this, so don't forget a gigantic dosage of salt. Also, I've been up for like 40 hours, so inevitably my grammar will be terrible.magamo Wrote:を is often pronounced "wo" in J-pop songs. Actually a lot of phonemes such as "t" in J-pop are pronounced differently than in usual speech. The reason behind this is rather complicated, so I omit the detail.oh, how about a brief summary then?
Anyway, some Japanese pop singers started mimicking European phonemes, especially American English, in their songs in the early 1970s as foreign songs grew popular in Japan (I could be wrong about when. I have unbelievably poor memory). Some say this was because back then younger generations thought it was cool to swap a Japanese phoneme with a similar foreign sound. Some also say it was because younger singers started incorporating Western style extensively in their songs; Writing Japanese lyrics that would fit with newer songs became more and more difficult because of the difference in sound systems between Japanese and other languages such as English. I think both have a point, and probably things are more complicated than these simple explanations.
You can see how difficult it is to write Japanese lyrics using only "proper" phonemes for a song in Western style by comparing world-famous European songs with their Japanese translations. The Japanese versions ALWAYS carry significantly less information in lyrics partly because one note should be assigned with one mora while languages like English can put a single word on it. For instance, "I love you" is most likely sung in 2-3 notes in English, but you can say only わたし in 3 notes in the traditional Japanese way.
Anyway, younger singers started singing in a way that they can sing multiple moras in one musical note. They also changed a lot of phonemes in pop songs when it was not necessary in terms of lyrics efficiency probably because they sounded better in Western style songs.
Notable changes I know include を -> wo, Japanese "t" -> American English "t" in "tear," Japanese す -> s (dropping the vowel). You can find more info about this if you google it in Japanese. I'm too lazy to search the internet.
Since these changes are often made for aesthetic reasons, it's kind of unpredictable if a sound is traditional or Western. Different lines in lyrics can be sung in different ways. Also the degree of changes vary from singer to singer.
It is also said this phenomenon has significantly affected phonetics of the Japanese language among younger Japanese. Since the sound system of a language changes in various reasons, apparently not all changes in phonemes are due to the influx of Western songs. But these changes seem to be continuing, and I think my mother speaks very traditionally and Aijin would sound more Western or simply "younger" in terms of pronunciation.
By the way, older Japanese usually suck at singing recent J-pop. I don't know if this phonetics thing has something to do with that, but some older Japanese complain that lyrics in popular songs are very "unclear" and "hard to figure out what they're saying" while younger Japanese apparently have no problem.
I'll google this later.
Japanese Pronunciation - Squintox - 2009-06-05
I think you guys are making it look more complicated than it really is >_>
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
TaylorSan Wrote:About the "r"I didn't notice gender differences. But it means nothing because, well, um, I couldn't hear the difference between "l" and "r" in English a year ago! Sorry I can't help you on this one. I don't know whether there is a masculine/feminine tendency. I want to know that too...
Is there a masculine/feminine tendency with this? For a word like ビール, I'm noticing when I shadow the men use a more "du" sound, and the ladies use a more "lu" sound. It seems like I've heard it with other words too (can't think of examples off the top of my head). Are there any gender pronunciation tendencies you can enlighten us about (I'm making it a point in my studies NOT to fall into the common "gaijin learned all his Japanese from his girl friend" trap").
Edit: Just googled. It seems the Japanese "r" is very loose. Not only are there regional differences, but also pronunciation differs from person to person in a region. Here's a very informative thread I found on the internet. Also found an academic paper on the difference in pronunciation learning process among Japanese boys and girls. Note that it's full of jargon and requires advanced Japanese skills to read. I just skimmed through the paper, and it says "r" has been considered one of the most difficult sounds for kids. It also says there is a certain difference in every phoneme between boys and girls under 6. But it basically assessed how often they "correctly" pronounce words that contain a give sound, so it doesn't necessarily mean there is a masculine "r". By the way, girls seem to be better at pronunciation than boys overall.
Squintox Wrote:I think you guys are making it look more complicated than it really is >_>I think so too... There is a difference, but it's just there. And if you pronounce them differently, still you sound like a native speaker. 小倉優子 proves that.
Japanese Pronunciation - Musashi - 2009-06-05
TaylorSan Wrote:About the "r"Yea been there done that, I was studying almost all the time with Japanese girls bakari (somehow it always goes like that, when you say to your guy friends 'hey lets study together one on one' it's just slightly awkward but I wished I had, and girls are more into that 'yea let's study together, yay!' thing) and then I had my Japanese guy friend telling me, yea your speech sounds 女の子ポイ...優しいけど、女の子ポイ. And I was aware of it that in Japanese male and female speech are different so I kept that in mind not to use the 〜ちゃった's and 〜かしら's, but then I copied my girl friends' intonation and it sounded girly again. For example the word でも, guys usually say it in a short straight tone, but I copied it saying it in a longer upwards tone, quite girly thus. So let that be a lesson to ya'll!
Is there a masculine/feminine tendency with this? For a word like ビール, I'm noticing when I shadow the men use a more "du" sound, and the ladies use a more "lu" sound. It seems like I've heard it with other words too (can't think of examples off the top of my head). Are there any gender pronunciation tendencies you can enlighten us about (I'm making it a point in my studies NOT to fall into the common "gaijin learned all his Japanese from his girl friend" trap").
yukkuri_kame Wrote:Obasan living in U.S. goes to the eye doctor:That was hilarious, and it also sounds like a Japanese English accent when you read it hahahaw! (no offence though)
Obasan: アイ カント シ エニシング。
Doctor: It seems you have cataracts.
Obasan: ノ。アイ ドント ハブ カジラク
Doctor: Yes, I am certain you have cataracts
Obasan: ノ。アイ ドント ハブ カジラク．アイ ハブ リンコンコンチネンタル。
Japanese Pronunciation - seminotti - 2009-06-05
Very interesting topic! I'l take advantage of it and bring something that has been bugging me for a while. It' about the 'j' sound.
When I studied the phonetics of the language for the first time, it was clear to me that the japanese 'j' is very close to the english sound.
Nevertheless, most of the times i hear 大丈夫, じょう sounds more like "zho". Is it just my imagination, or am I right?
Thanks in advance.
Japanese Pronunciation - nac_est - 2009-06-05
Here, I've finally found Matsumoto's ひ. It's in this video at around 1:50, when he says 「一人 二個ずつ」. Doesn't it sound like a し (it may be just me)?
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
nac_est Wrote:Here, I've finally found Matsumoto's ひ. It's in this video at around 1:50, when he says 「一人 二個ずつ」. Doesn't it sound like a し (it may be just me)?I think most Japanese would recognize it as ひ, though he didn't seem to articulate the word. When I watched it again, I thought it was somewhere between the typical ひ and し, leaning more toward ひ. Apparently the context helped me recognize it, and if I only listened to the ひ taken from the video, it could be unclear. I don't think it's a regional accent.
I'm interested in what masaman and Aijin think of it.
Oh, by the way, I just remembered I couldn't pronounce 七味（しちみ）when I was a little kind. I just couldn't understand the difference between ひちみ and しちみ. The triple いs in a word was super hard, too.
Japanese Pronunciation - TaylorSan - 2009-06-05
Squintox Wrote:I think you guys are making it look more complicated than it really is >_>Well yeah, I kind of agree with you. I think a lot of this you learn by feel, listening/shadowing over a long period of time ect. But it doesn't hurt to discuss it a bit. I kind of feel the same way about grammar.....95% (rough guess) I learn by hearing it used many times over a long period of time, but getting an explanation serves to enhance the learning too, and is valuable. If someone can explain a thing when your in the process of learning it, I think it can speed things up. It can get super technical and make it more complicated then it really is. But some peoples interests and brains a geared for this, so more power to them.
One reason I like to ask questions/discuss things in the forum, is I am self studying, so at present I don't have [kana]日本人[/kana] or [kana]日本語の先生[/kana] to learn from. Being far away from Japan (and being a beginner) it's extra helpful to have an explanation (the hypothetical missing 5% from my self study), because you often can't tell dialects/gender differences etc., when mining native sources. This is no perfect fix, but it can help!
Musashi Wrote:Yea been there done that, I was studying almost all the time with Japanese girls bakari (somehow it always goes like that, when you say to your guy friends 'hey lets study together one on one' it's just slightly awkward but I wished I had, and girls are more into that 'yea let's study together, yay!' thing) and then I had my Japanese guy friend telling me, yea your speech sounds 女の子ポイ...優しいけど、女の子ポイ.Haha...yeah this has happened to A LOT of dudes I think. And often they don't know what's happened until they're in deep! When I get to the point of getting a language exchange partner, I want to learn from a guy. If I ever have a J-girl teach me, I'll be sure to ask her "ok, but if you were a dude, HOW would you say it?"!
Japanese Pronunciation - magamo - 2009-06-05
TaylorSan Wrote:If I ever have a J-girl teach me, I'll be sure to ask her "ok, but if you were a dude, HOW would you say it?"!Genius. That way you learn masculine Japanese and what kind of guy she likes.
Japanese Pronunciation - yukkuri_kame - 2009-06-05
Musashi Wrote:I kept that in mind not to use the 〜ちゃった's and 〜かしら'sI knew かしら was girl talk, but didn't know ちゃた was on the list. Thanks for helping me salvage a shred of my manhood.
Glad you liked the joke. I had heard the joke verbally, but the kana seems to work.