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Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - MeNoSavvy - 2009-06-09
http://happydays.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/the-joy-of-less/?em
I read this interesting blog post on the New York times website. The guy is basically advocating finding happiness through living a simpler life, but what I found interesting is that he has lived near Kyoto for over 20 years, but still can't understand Japanese. I guess immersion in the Japanese environment doesn't do much for your Japanese.
The comments from other people are quite interesting as well. In my opinion living a simple life in a foreign country is a luxury that not many can afford, and certainly Japan is not, for most, the ideal place this blog post might imply.
Still I agree with the sentiment, the relentless pursuit of wealth or material possessions won't necessarily bring happiness. On the other hand who was it that said "I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is better"
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - theasianpleaser - 2009-06-09
I met a guy who has lived in Japan for 18 years in Japan.
His vocabulary was こんにちは・お早う・良かったね・コンビ二.
He knew the kanji 川・山・火.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - wccrawford - 2009-06-09
MeNoSavvy Wrote:I guess immersion in the Japanese environment doesn't do much for your Japanese.Wrong. Immersion in a Japanese environment is -immensely- helpful for learning Japanese. But only if you are actually TRYING to learn Japanese.
He was trying to 'live a simpler life'. That means -not- doing things like learning new languages.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - thistime - 2009-06-09
wccrawford Wrote:And actually IMMERSINGMeNoSavvy Wrote:I guess immersion in the Japanese environment doesn't do much for your Japanese.Wrong. Immersion in a Japanese environment is -immensely- helpful for learning Japanese. But only if you are actually TRYING to learn Japanese.
He was trying to 'live a simpler life'. That means -not- doing things like learning new languages.
. It's amazing how people can live in such an English-centric environment in Japan. English TV, English movies, English literature, English pubs, English speaking friends ONLY, English speaking coworkers, English speaking Japanese significant other that goes to the bank and city hall and the doctor's with/for you.I used to work with a guy that averaged about 5 mins of Japanese (input and output) a day in Japan over 20 years. That equals about 600 hours in total. He could say 2-3 word sentences only.
He kept trying to tell me about English radio stations I could listen to, where I could watch English TV shows, good English language magazines in Japan. I thought, "I didn't come to Japan to surround myself with English at every possible turn."
Another former coworker has lived in Japan for three years and he pumps out his chest every time he can correctly read one single hiragana (which is only about 50% of the time).
Yet another former coworker actually said that any Japanese person worth speaking to would know English so there's no need to learn Japanese. I often wondered how he knew that Japanese people that don't speak English are not worth talking to since he's never actually talked to any.
Oh well, it takes all kinds I guess.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Evil_Dragon - 2009-06-09
Also using an SRS and leading a simple life don't mix too well I guess.
..now how people can actually not learn anything although they are living in a country for several years is beyond me. I personally would feel really ashamed if I ever were in such a situation.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - kyotokanji - 2009-06-09
I see it as relating to fitting into convienient stereotypes and boxes. Japanese people like to put people into boxes when they first meet them, I know people do this everywhere in the world but in Japan it can be more blunt and extreme. These stereotypes are the whackey genki gaijin, the serious foreigner who studies tea ceremony, the french aristic type etc etc. These stereotypes are not harmful but merely make life easier. When Japanese people meet a westerner they immediately think they can't speak Japanese, so the stereotype comes into play. It is much easier in life to life (especialy in Japan) to fit into these stereotypes. In fact it appears that many try to fit into these to make life easier for themselves. Life is therefore very simple when you act and behave exactly as people expect you to do. This is what this man is doing, his behaviour doesn't shock Japanese people at all, it merely helps them to confirm their generalisations about westerns and the Japanese language.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Codexus - 2009-06-09
I don't understand those guys. Do they like being unable to speak to anyone?
I can understand that there are people that go to Japan for a few years to work in an English bubble and are too busy to spend too much time learning the language. I think it's still a waste but I can imagine it. However, people who live their life over there and don't bother to learn the language, I just don't get it.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Squintox - 2009-06-09
thistime Wrote:Yet another former coworker actually said that any Japanese person worth speaking to would know English so there's no need to learn Japanese. I often wondered how he knew that Japanese people that don't speak English are not worth talking to since he's never actually talked to any.That sounds very sad. O_O It gave me more motivation for some reason... the whole " connecting more people" sort-of motivation
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - kioku3 - 2009-06-09
Pico Iyer (the author of the NYTimes piece) is a well-known and prolific essayist and travel writer. According to wikipedia, he won academic scholarships to Eton, Oxford University and Harvard - graduating with a Congratulatory Double First at Oxford - and taught writing and literature at Harvard before joining Time Magazine in 1982. In reading the wiki article on him, it seems that he chose Kyoto to live specifically because he wanted a comfortable, quiet place with few distractions for writing and a place which is amenable to his interest in religion and spirituality. From the wiki article: "Most of his books have been about trying to see from within some society or way of life - revolutionary Cuba, Sufism, Buddhist Kyoto, even global disorientation - but from the larger perspective an outsider can sometimes bring."
Perhaps we shouldn't lump him with the guy at work who "pumps out his chest every time he can correctly read one single hiragana (which is only about 50% of the time)." Since his work often deals with the outsider in society, I get the feeling he is choosing specifically not to get good at the language to keep his outsider perspective. I suspect watching Japanese TV is not real important to him. His goals are just different than people on this forum.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - captal - 2009-06-09
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Khatz just wrote an article on this
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/if-immersion-works-so-well-then-why-can-people-live-in-a-country-for-double-digit-years-and-never-learn-the-language
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - eroichigo - 2009-06-09
Hearing stories like this disturbs me as it goes against the core of my being. I'm constantly compelled to understand everything around me and expand my knowledge. Living in a bubble of ignorance, whyyyyy?
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-09
People don't learn Japanese after living there for 20 years because they never tried to learn it. Period. It's very simple and doesn't require a TL;DR 20 page essay from khatz. As hard as it may be to believe to some people, those expats probably don't care about Japanese culture/language/media at all. They just ended up in Japan due to job transfers or marrying a (bilingual) citizen.
Simply being interested and doing fun stuff isn't enough either. Spending every waking hour watching unsubtitled anime in your hometown in Idaho will also teach you nothing if you aren't actively trying to learn. Why do you think almost every anime otaku knows nothing beyond "kawaii"?
Learning requires hardwork and dedication. Living in-country just gives a multiplier to that. If your level of dedication is 0, multiplying that still gives 0. Taking Japanese classes is another such multiplier (albeit smaller).
re: khatz
Fun isn't the opposite of dedication. People who become expert basketball players get that way by being dedicated to something that they have fun doing. That said, they still have to do a lot of non-fun things (like we have to do SRS) to help them improve the fun aspects. If they ONLY had fun all the time they would never get to the pro level and would be limited to the level of playing with their pals in the park.
If I had to choose between the two, I'd say that dedication is easily more important than having fun or even being interested in Japanese culturally. Most people who learn Japanese to a high level are Chinese. Most of THEM learn it for career advancement.
Fun doesn't matter at all other than to help someone who is faltering to maintain their dedication. Reading novels & manga or watching anime/j-tv is good for your Japanese, but that is because you are USING Japanese to do it - fun has nothing to do with it. You could be reading press releases for sewage treatment equipment manufacturers and it would have the same beneficial effect if you had the dedication to keep at it.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Hashiriya - 2009-06-09
i met a woman before that lived in Tokyo for 20 years as an English teacher and couldn't speak a word either...
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - danieldesu - 2009-06-09
Hashiriya Wrote:i met a woman before that lived in Tokyo for 20 years as an English teacher and couldn't speak a word either...I don't get what makes those kinds of people think they are qualified to explain to someone else how to learn another language.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - captal - 2009-06-09
Jarvik- great post- and I agree with you- dedication is definitely more important than fun.
I just liked Khatz's point that micro-environment is more important than macro-environment. Surrounding yourself at a personal level with your target language, and you're learn faster, be it through fun, dedication, or both.
I liked the analogy that a Japanese learner put on you tube- every time you stop doing things in Japanese and start doing them in English, it's like getting off the treadmill and having an ice cream. That's why micro-environment is so important- it enables you to keep doing things in Japanese.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - activeaero - 2009-06-09
Hashiriya Wrote:i met a woman before that lived in Tokyo for 20 years as an English teacher and couldn't speak a word either...A girl I work with lived in Japan for several years. She was asking me about my Kanji chart that I have hanging up at my work desk and feeling excited that someone was interested we started chatting.......for a few seconds for that was when she asked "What is HEERAGAWNAAAA?" when I mentioned something about the readings. I thought she misunderstood so I was like "You know, Hiragana and Katakana".
Completely blank expression from her. She didn't just not know Hiragana or Katakana....she didn't even recognize the terms.
I think I stared at her for about 10 seconds in complete silence as my brain had trouble processing a response lol.
She's a cool chick but it is just amazing to me how someone could create an English bubble THAT strong.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - bodhisamaya - 2009-06-09
captal Wrote:Jarvik- great post- and I agree with you- dedication is definitely more important than fun.Without fun, dedication will not last. Be dedicated to fun Japanese things.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Hashiriya - 2009-06-10
haha, really funny story activeaero
btw, a bit unrelated to this thread but i saw a Philipino guy with an Eclipse the other day... he said nonsense Japanese written on the bottom of his car but the funniest part about it was that half of the characters were upside down!! My Japanese wife was dieing laughing of course
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - avparker - 2009-06-10
Unfortunately I can easily understand how this happens - I face the other side of this issue - I really want to learn Japanese, but find it hard to get the exposure I want when I work 9-10 hours a day at an English speaking company and live with an English speaking girlfriend. But even then it's possible to make progress - it just takes longer than I'd like.
Also, for some people it's a choice - my girlfriend decided not to learn Japanese at all when we came, she was already learning Indonesian and felt another language would be too much. I can't say I would like to live in a country where I couldn't even say 'please', 'thankyou' or 'sorry', but some people make that choice.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Hashiriya - 2009-06-10
not everybody wants to make the time commitment to learn a new language i agree... but 20 years in a country without even trying to learn at least the basics of the language seems kinda funny...
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Nukemarine - 2009-06-10
I like how this thread evolved. Thanks Jarvik and Captal.
I'm technically living in a predominantly French and Arabic speaking area. I'm actively refusing to learn either. However, it's because:
A) I have no material for French or Arabic (studying or pleasure)
B) I'll have to go off base or sit around the firefighters to even hear French.
C) I'm concentrating on Japanese.
However, I'm not one of those that say "Oh, I'm too busy to take a class" "I have no knack for language" "It's too hard" etc. I realize it takes effort, and I'm putting effort elsewhere.
About the bubble. It's the same situation for me as in Japan, I work on a US base that surrounds itself in English. That is a very big bubble. I can't walk around with earphones. I can't have Japanese blasting at work. I don't have a TV in my room. But damned if I don't have my iPod playing on my speakers every time I'm in my room, even while I sleep.
Setting up the micro climate for a language is very important, especially for those of us that have to be in an English bubble outside of Japan.
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - rich_f - 2009-06-10
Yeah, the nature of my work is such that it's all in English. Lots of it. And it's not like I can just toss it aside, because "it's cooler to do it in Japanese." Our readers don't speak the language, so it's a non-starter.
So I create a micro-bubble of my own, when I can, and I study when I can. Japanese is fun, but right now, English pays the bills. I'm not necessarily rocketing to the top of proficiency, but I understand a heck of a lot more than when I started, so it works for me. And I mix in diligence and fun in equal parts. When I get sick of the SRS, I go read something entertaining, or watch/listen to something fun.
Carrot and stick. (Whichever is fun for you...)
Articulate guy lives in Japan for 20yrs but still can't speak Japanese - Jarvik7 - 2009-06-10
captal Wrote:just liked Khatz's point that micro-environment is more important than macro-environment.Actually that was a book quote.