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+--- Thread: -ず ending (verb) and 様になる (/thread-315.html)
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - ファブリス - 2006-12-21
I have been searching for these without luck :
忘れられず
Looking up 忘れられず in Google gives a fair number of hits, but I am still unsure about the proper english equivalent. It could be passive form or potential form, the ず ending seems to be outdated or to be some kind of negative form ?
田中さんの優しさが忘れられず (...)
"Mr Tanaka's kindness could not be forgotten"
"I could not forget Mr Tanaka's kindness"
様になる
All I can find about it is "(exp) to look good".
In the sentence, I am not sure what 様になる adds :
<xyz>をする様になり嬉しいです.
How does this differ from:
<xyz>をする嬉しいです.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - laxxy - 2006-12-21
ファブリス Wrote:様になるCould it be "to become like <whatever comes before>" (read as ～ようになる)?
All I can find about it is "(exp) to look good".
ALC
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - raulir - 2006-12-21
ファブリス Wrote:<xyz>をする様になり嬉しいです.する嬉しい is not grammatical, so I assume you mean して嬉しい.
How does this differ from:
<xyz>をする嬉しいです.
ようになる is about a change of situation, while する is about an action. "I'm glad that my grandpa started taking his daily pills again" is of the former kind and "I'm glad that my grandpa took his pills today when I told him" of the latter. Another example for the former would be <...>に行くようになりました, which would indicate that someone else (e.g. the company you work for) decided that you will go somewhere ("I ended up having to go", perhaps? The "having to" part is between the lines, though, as such it's just "the situation became such that I will go", but that's awkward English).
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - Pangolin - 2006-12-21
It's negative, like -nai, but it's a connective (similar to the -te verb ending) so something always follows it. It's often translated as "without".
In your example, I think it would be "unforgettable"
田中さんの優しさが忘れられず (...)
Mr Tanaka's kindess is unforgettable...
But I think there must always be a following clause as it is a connective form and the expression would be incomplete.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - ファブリス - 2006-12-21
laxxy Wrote:Could it be "to become like <whatever comes before>" (read as ～ようになる)?Yes, that's probably what it is. I checked a previous letter from my friend and then noticed she wrote the reading [kana]you[/kana] on top of the kanji 様. It seems like this should be written in kana only, and 様になる reads as [kana]samaninaru[/kana].
ps: wow! that ALC link should be very helpful!
raulir Wrote:する嬉しい is not grammatical, so I assume you mean して嬉しい.Thanks, I should have written more carefully, I meant the phrase like "I hope that..." (-たら嬉しいです).
When I tried to rewrite the phrase with -tara it became clearer to me :
手紙のやり取りをするようになりとても嬉しいです。
Without the context it was not very clear, but this is about something that happened, so it means roughly "I'm very happy about the exhange of letters (that took place/that came to be)"
やり取り = exchange (of letters)
Hence the use of になる
If I rwrite the sentence with -たら嬉しいです :
手紙のやり取りをしたらとても嬉しいです。
Would refer to something that one hope will begin but did not take place before.
Pangolin Wrote:(similar to the -te verb ending) so something always follows it.Yup, thanks for confirming this.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - JimmySeal - 2006-12-21
Pangolin Wrote:It's negative, like -nai, but it's a connective (similar to the -te verb ending) so something always follows it. It's often translated as "without".ず can, and often does, occur at the end of a sentence. Don't confuse it with its close relative ずに.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - laxxy - 2006-12-21
ファブリス Wrote:kana-only version is probably more common, but I have seen this in kanji before, too.laxxy Wrote:Could it be "to become like <whatever comes before>" (read as ～ようになる)?Yes, that's probably what it is. I checked a previous letter from my friend and then noticed she wrote the reading [kana]you[/kana] on top of the kanji 様. It seems like this should be written in kana only, and 様になる reads as [kana]samaninaru[/kana]
Google has ~5970000 for のように and 1590000 for の様に so both seem fairly popular.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - Raichu - 2006-12-23
The -zu inflection is a negative, sort of like "-naku".
Irregular verbs [kana]kuru[/kana] becomes [kana]konai/kozu[/kana], [kana]suru[/kana] becomes [kana]shinai/sezu[/kana], [kana]aru[/kana] becomes [kana]nai/arazu[/kana].
Apparently it can be used as a "na" adjective. I guess this usage is rare.
The most common use is when followed by "ni". [kana]sezuni[/kana] means either "without doing" or "instead of doing", depending on context.
You'll see it occasionally (in I think literary contexts rather than speech) as a negative in place of "-naku", "-nakute" or "-nai".
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - ファブリス - 2006-12-23
Thanks Raichu, I didn't know せず comes from する.
Here is an example with せずに :
せず (prt) without (suffix)
せずに (adv) without (doing), instead of, (P)
無理せず日本語の勉強頑張って下さい。
"Please continue studying Japanese without overdoing"
...
I still can't find my way around in the "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" when I'm looking up anything to do with verbs. It must be hidden somewhere
The rest is superb.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - Renske - 2006-12-24
ずに is the same as ないで and ず is なくて. Both are used inside a sentence and are not used in sentence endings (at least not in written language). ずに is like なくて often a way to connect sentence parts, it a very literal style. It has the same literary function as using the stem of verbs instead of ～て forms. For example 書いて ⇒ 書き, 書かないで ⇒ 書かずに, 書かなくて ⇒ 書かず.
Although ないで is ofen used as a request/order, ずに is hardly used for that.
Some examples for ずに
何も言わずに出かけてしまう。
Go out without saying anything.
払わずに店を出る。
Leave the store without paying.
-ず ending (verb) and 様になる - raulir - 2006-12-24
Renske Wrote:Although ないで is ofen used as a request/order, ずに is hardly used for that.そんなこと言わずに ;-)