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+--- Thread: RTK Beginner (/thread-3077.html)
RTK Beginner - gandiva - 2009-05-17
Hi, I'm just beginning RTK and I was wondering if anyone can share how they first started out. I'm a little bit confused as to how to work with the first 15 kanji. Do I still make stories for them like including the primitives? Do I have to memorize the special primitives as well? I've been reading everywhere and I've gradually picked up information on how to begin, but I'm still confused. How do I start? I'm following AJATT and I'm quite excited.
Enlighten me, please. Thank you.Also, I plan to use Anki with this, so if someone could touch up on that as well, would be great.
RTK Beginner - mafried - 2009-05-17
Just memorize the first 15. Heisig assumes you already know these ones. It isn't until lesson 2 or 3 that he starts explaining how to break them up into primitives and make memorable stories.
RTK Beginner - Asakk - 2009-05-17
but the hints Heisig gives to memorize these 15 (if you don't know them) is quite useful...
RTK Beginner - crayonmaster - 2009-05-17
I can see how it would be difficult to start out if you don't know the first 15 kanji. If your having trouble with the numbers, it probably wouldn't hurt to put some of them off for a while, and learn them more slowly. You'll only need to use 1, 5, 7 and 9, I think, in the next couple hundred frames...
RTK Beginner - gandiva - 2009-05-17
Yes, I had no idea what those first 15 were. I've practiced them the last hour and I'm getting used to them. I've just memorized the keywords, as well..l do i need to pay attention to the special primitives?
@mafried: Okay, I guess I'll keep going then. I was confused because I didn't know what to do. Now that I hear he explains them later on makes more sense. :]
Also, how do you guys use Anki? Any particular settings to use? I just want to be sure I'm doing everything correctly.
RTK Beginner - harhol - 2009-05-17
1, 2 and 3 are self-explanatory. 4 is rare but easy to remember. I forgot 5 a few times. 6 is a top hat with legs. 7 is annoying... it'll click eventually. Heisig's description for 8 is extremely useful. 9 is so common that you won't be allowed to forget it. 10 is easy, as is Mouth. Day, Month, Rice Field and Eye are widespread.
The best way to remember the first fifteen is to just do the book. That might sound confusing, but most of them show up so often as primitives that simply learning new kanji will help to fix them in your memory.
For Anki, go File >> Download >> Shared Deck and download the Heisig one (should be top of the list). Then it's just a case of clicking Learn More and going through them until you've had enough. Reviews will be scheduled automatically.
RTK Beginner - Thora - 2009-05-17
There are also shared stories and a great review system on this site (in case you were not already aware)
RTK Beginner - crayonmaster - 2009-05-17
harhol Wrote:7 is annoying... it'll click eventually.I remember it as an upsidedown 7 (crossed)
RTK Beginner - gandiva - 2009-05-17
7 is the hardest for me to remember. The upsidedown thing doesn't work for me. It's weird! I look at it and think of a fishing hook crossed/cut out.
@Thora: Thanks for that. Will look for it now. Why would you use the review system if you already have Anki, though? They're not the same? I also have just one more question.
How long do you review the kanji everyday?
RTK Beginner - mafried - 2009-05-17
gandiva Wrote:Why would you use the review system if you already have Anki, though? They're not the same?No, they are not. RevTK has a fixed number of boxes with fixed intervals. Anki has an adaptive algorithm with an infinite number of boxes (if you want to think about it that way) that takes into account how easy/hard you find each of your cards to be. Use one or the other; there's no reason to use both. I assume Thora was just letting you know you've got options.
gandiva Wrote:How long do you review the kanji everyday?Depends on how many cards you add each day, your fail rate, and the rate you've been progressing since you started, among other things. In otherwords you can't really compare against other people by time. But for me it's about 1 hour/day (and I have a job, school, and a gf on top of that).
RTK Beginner - WeTsTICK - 2009-05-17
When i started out I was much the same as you, no previous kanji knowledge. All i did was keep writing the first 15 as most of them show up regularly, put them in the srs (Just use one or the other, like someone said.) Review them, sort out your sailed stack, then keep adding more. Just start at a reasonable pace of 20 a day at first, depends on the individual though. As long as you review the expired cards (important to let them expire) then clear your failed stack you will be laughing.
I found that if you just keep going it gets easier because you keep seeing the same elements over and over.
Hope that helps
RTK Beginner - Katsuo - 2009-05-17
The first few kanji are simple and some can be remembered pictographically.
E.g. 口, "mouth" looks a bit like a square mouth;
And 三, "three" looks a bit like a Roman three III on its side.
(for 七, see below*)
But the main method of the book is to memorize kanji by associating its name ("keyword") with the names of its parts ("primitives").
E.g. 吐 "spit" is made from 口 "mouth" and 土 "dirt". A possible story is:
A: "Why did you spit (you foul-mannered person)?"
B: "Sorry, my mouth got some dirt in it".
Three tips:
- If you can remember the stories using images rather than words then they can be language-free and you can avoid constantly reverting to English.
- Including some kind of emotion makes stories/images more memorable (hence I added A's disapproval and B's apology in the story above).
- Try to associate the keyword with something that readily comes to mind (your mind, that is). Then the kanji will more readily come to mind as well.
*So, looking at 七 "seven"...
What comes readily to mind when you think of "seven"?
Seven-Eleven? Seven Samurai? Magnificent Seven? Seventh heaven? Seven Deadly Sins? Something else?
You mentioned that for you 七 looks like "a fishing hook crossed/cut out", so possible story:
You go to your local Seven-Eleven and are surprised to see a large sign in the window of "a fishing hook crossed/cut out" (i.e. No Fishing!). And then you see the reason: Some anglers are craftily using their gear to steal food from display cases. No other stores have this sign, only Seven-Eleven.
RTK Beginner - gandiva - 2009-05-18
@WeTsTICK
A few questions. What's 'sailed' stack? What do you mean let the cards expire? Does that mean I don't review them until they expire? What I've been doing so far is reviewing 'early' the kanji again and again until I score high. Should I just review them once? and then wait until the next day? "As long as you review the expired cards (important to let them expire) then clear your failed stack you will be laughing." - this is the part I'm a bit confused.
@Katsuo
Thank you very much for your reply. It was really clear. I'm sure it will be helpful to other 'newbies' as well.
RTK Beginner - Brokenvai - 2009-05-18
He meant the expired cards and failed cards. You should wait for cards to expire, then review them.
The whole idea is that based on how well you remembered a Kanji, an amount of time right before you forget the Kanji will pass, and the system puts the Kanji ready for you to review again. The failed stack is the cards you reviewed and didn't remember. He just meant that reviewing your expired and failed cards will clear out your work for reviewing, and you'll be happy, I'm assuming.
RTK Beginner - welldone101 - 2009-05-18
gandiva Wrote:A few questions. What's 'sailed' stack? What do you mean let the cards expire? Does that mean I don't review them until they expire? What I've been doing so far is reviewing 'early' the kanji again and again until I score high. Should I just review them once? and then wait until the next day? "As long as you review the expired cards (important to let them expire) then clear your failed stack you will be laughing." - this is the part I'm a bit confused."sailed" stack would be failed stack. It makes more sense to say "failed stack" if you are using this websites built in SRS. If you are using Anki then you "fail" a card by clicking "soon" or "1" and, depending on your settings, it comes back to you in a few minutes to try again.
About reviewing. You said above that you have been "reviewing early" until you score highly. Basically this is no different than making paper flash cards, or treating your SRS as a flash card program. What an SRS is actually supposed to do is handle the scheduling of reviews for you. So typically it would go like this.
1) learn a new card
2) add it to your SRS
3) Review it for the first time ever in your SRS
4) eventually it will come back again through the schedule, at that time you pass it or fail it (learn it again if you fail it)
5) step 4 will repeat at larger and larger intervals as the SRS program moves the word from your short term memory to your long term
This is all written down well on this page http://kanji.koohii.com/learnmore.php if you read the whole thing. Basically, you are shooting yourself in the foot by reviewing early.
Instead of relying on Number 3 and 4 up there (review review) to increase your score, you should rely on Number 1 (learn the new card). Increase the time you spend learning new cards till you get the hang of it, then decrease.
You also asked another question "how much do you review each day?" However, that is usually always determined by the SRS program. Some days you will have 70 cards to review, some days you will have 20. You should try to plan your pace so that you are able to finish the assigned reviews each day.
Well that's basically a summary of the way I do it. Good luck! The first ones are the hardest. Anyone that is marked with a *primitive marker, spend some time making a very specific, unique image for it because it becomes your "alphabet" as you go through the book.
RTK Beginner - gandiva - 2009-05-19
@Welldone101
"Increase the time you spend learning new cards till you get the hang of it, then decrease."
Do you mean review the new cards only in Anki on the day I learn them? I don't have to worry about the old kanji because they'll show up when they expire... or do you mean writing them down.
Also, hahaha so many questions...
Okay, when the kanji stack gets larger as I go through the book, obviously there will be more and more reviews I must do everyday, right? Actually my question now is: how LONG do you review each day? Spend the time learning new kanji vs. reviewing them in Anki...Thanks!