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Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - harhol - 2009-05-17
Jarvik7 Wrote:I would agree with the 1% figure quoted in the article. I know very few people who know kanji to a sufficient level, and I personally know hundreds of students of Japanese.The man makes a good point. Japanese is one of those languages which 99% of the internet seems to be learning. In fact, I doubt there's a more popular desired second language in the 15-30 age group other than English. Every animé fan and his waifu seems to be "learning Japanese" these days, although the extent to which they're actually studying is impossible to determine.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Tobberoth - 2009-05-17
1% not being able to write kanji like RTKers doesn't mean that RTKers are overachievers. RtK is probably the easiest and less stressful way to learn kanji that exists, it's a huge simplification. 99% of all people who study kanji try to learn the kanji, the readings, the meanings, the compounds and the writing all at once. Without an SRS. THAT'S why the 1% who do RTK are so much better at writing and recognizing kanji. We learn with less effort and more speed, without forgetting what we learn. We are making it easy for ourselfs, and that's why we're improving in a way more steady and rapid way.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Jeromin - 2009-05-17
I agree. Rather than mere isolated over achievers, students in this forum become well equipped for the task with the most sophisticated, up to date tools, great mutual encouragement and an atmosphere of friendly competitiveness, making the desire to achieve more quite natural. At least that's how I feel, when I hear about another student finishing RTK1: "I want to get there too, and soon!". Responsibilities and distractions getting in the way of my initial target ( from a mid May deadline to some 800 characters learned so far) is a source of personal frustration. There is probably a lesson in Zen simplicity waiting to be extracted. But not just yet...
I think there is a certain amount of apprehension by some Japanese about a greater number of Westerners overcoming the Kanji barrier. It opens up the gates of a wall they'd rather keep close, while putting into question the intellectual superiority of those who built it in the first place. With a recent memory of having watched all their natural, insular defenses blasted into dust, one can hardly blame them for cherishing the one wall the conquering gaijin could never demolish.
J
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Gingerninja - 2009-05-17
i was thinking to myself the other day.. theres a lot of japanese learners and everyone seems so much further ahead than me, but then i figured the reason
the websites i visit are probably 90% about japanese or learning japanese so obviously the people you come across are actively doing so.
if i were to go onto a random forum and say "hey anyone learn japanese, whats up with these kanjis! " i wouldnt expect to find much of a response.
it only seems there are so many learners because im sure many of us don't venture outside the learner bubble when we are in study mode. (altho i admit to checking mmo sites far too often when im supposed to be studying)
but with any community, be it a game community, language community etc, only few will ever reach the respective top level as many just join to see what its about and invariably lose interest. im sure everyone tries multiple hobbies until they find one that sticks. so the statistics are probably skewed a little.
if the statistic was to say the amount of people who "seriously" study japanese who are competant in kanji im sure the figure would be a lot higher.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - harhol - 2009-05-17
Tobberoth Wrote:RTK is probably the easiest and less stressful way to learn kanji that exists, it's a huge simplification. 99% of all people who study kanji try to learn the kanji, the readings, the meanings, the compounds and the writing all at once. Without an SRS. THAT'S why the 1% who do RTK are so much better at writing and recognizing kanji.True, but it's not like RTK is some obscure secret hidden away in the darket corners of the internet. It's the most famous book ever written on learning kanji and one of the most famous in the history of language learning. Just look at the number of Amazon reviews to get an idea of its popularity. You can't go anywhere on a Japanese forum without hearing about Heisig (usually negative comments, admittedly) and naturally following the leads would inevitably lead to the discovery of SRS. The tools we use aren't hidden away, it's just that the majority of people reject them without ever giving them a chance. You can see this, again, by looking at the Amazon reviews of RTK.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Jarvik7 - 2009-05-17
harhol: I wouldn't say it's the most famous book on learning kanji. I've personally never seen it in a bookstore. I do, however, always see the same crap books like kanji picto-grafix.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - harhol - 2009-05-17
I just had a look at Kanji Pictographix using Amazon's look inside feature... I'm speechless. Could there be a less helpful method for learning Japanese? Can't believe anyone would buy something like that. The hiragana & katakana pictographs are laughable and make no sense whatsoever. No indication of stroke order either.
Can't comment on RTK's popularity in book stores over here because I've never browsed for language books before. But it has almost double the number of reviews of any other kanji-related book on Amazon (KP being the second most popular unfortunately). Admittedly there are several reviews which appear to be fraudulent and based on hearsay, but it's still the clear online leader.
It also comes up second in Amazon's listings when you search for the word "kanji". So it's effectively impossible to have not heard of Heisig if you've done any kind of serious research.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - chamcham - 2009-05-17
I've read Hiragana Times and love the magazine for including furigana for EVERY kanji.
Are you sure the article isn't from their "Parody Talk" section, where they write joke articles on funny/hypothetical topics for fun?
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - fluxcapacitor - 2009-05-17
I also wondered if it was from the Parody Talk section. There was a Parody Talk article recently about getting rid of kanji and katakana completely and just using English words and hiragana.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Nuriko - 2009-05-17
chamcham Wrote:I've read Hiragana Times and love the magazine for including furigana for EVERY kanji.Entirely possible...
Are you sure the article isn't from their "Parody Talk" section, where they write joke articles on funny/hypothetical topics for fun?
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - slivir - 2009-06-07
I quite liked that kanji pictographix book. Mind you it's nowhere near as effective as the Heisig method but it helped me out a lot. As an example, his pictures helped me to distinguish taskmaster (halbred) from walking legs. I also think many of his primitive labels are a little more accurate than the ones Heisig uses.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - vosmiura - 2009-06-07
I came across and tried Henshal & Pict-o-graphix before RTK. I found RTK while searching on the internet, not in any bookstores. I think RTK has spread more since then in bookstores though, possibly since the re-publishing with Hawaii press.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - JimmySeal - 2009-06-08
Quote:It'd be hell, and only 1 in 100 people would end up being able to read and write them sufficiently well.（まさに地獄の苦しみであり、100人に1人も充分には漢字の読み書きができないまま終わるだろう。）I'm fairly sure this is a mistranslation. The Japanese (which I believe to be the original text) says:
as many as 1 in 100 people would end up not being able to read and write them sufficiently well.
That in its own way seems overly optimistic for the kanji learning success rate.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Nuriko - 2009-06-08
JimmySeal Wrote:Great observation! Either the Japanese version writer of this is off his/her rocker or this possibly went from English ---> Japanese translation (with a Japanese translator that didn't translate correctly or just fudged up the sentence). After all, the sentence starts with "It'd be hell..." and then ends with something so ideal as 99 out of 100 people being able to master kanji.Quote:It'd be hell, and only 1 in 100 people would end up being able to read and write them sufficiently well.（まさに地獄の苦しみであり、100人に1人も充分には漢字の読み書きができないまま終わるだろう。）I'm fairly sure this is a mistranslation. The Japanese (which I believe to be the original text) says:
as many as 1 in 100 people would end up not being able to read and write them sufficiently well.
That in its own way seems overly optimistic for the kanji learning success rate.
The sentence it's supposed to be in English (given the Japanese was the original and correctly written) would be:
It'd be hell, and only as many as 1 in 100 people would end up not being able to read and write them sufficiently well.
Makes no sense/makes me all the more unsure about Hiragana Times
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - Evil_Dragon - 2009-06-08
JimmySeal Wrote:I'm fairly sure this is a mistranslation. The Japanese (which I believe to be the original text) says:Maybe I'm being fooled by my mediocre Japanese skills (feel free to correct me), but doesn't it rather say "not even 1 in 100 people" than "as many as 1 in 100 people"?
as many as 1 in 100 people would end up not being able to read and write them sufficiently well.
That in its own way seems overly optimistic for the kanji learning success rate.
Kind of makes it sound even more unlikely than the English version.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - KristinHolly - 2009-06-08
Evil_Dragon Wrote:That in its own way seems overly optimistic for the kanji learning success rate.Yes, that's what it says, but the author is specifically talking about learning the writing, meaning and all pronunciations of 3,000 kanji in a *short period of time*. The author goes on to say that if that is your situation, you should focus on learning the *meanings* of the kanji. So . . . that doesn't seem so negative or so different from RTK, really.
Maybe I'm being fooled by my mediocre Japanese skills (feel free to correct me), but doesn't it rather say "not even 1 in 100 people" than "as many as 1 in 100 people"?
Kind of makes it sound even more unlikely than the English version.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - JimmySeal - 2009-06-08
Evil_Dragon Wrote:も is used in affirmative sentences to emphasize an unexpectedly large quantity. In negative sentences it means "not even." In this case I believe 100人に1人 is the subject of 終わる, which is in the affirmative.JimmySeal Wrote:I'm fairly sure this is a mistranslation. The Japanese (which I believe to be the original text) says:Maybe I'm being fooled by my mediocre Japanese skills (feel free to correct me), but doesn't it rather say "not even 1 in 100 people" than "as many as 1 in 100 people"?
as many as 1 in 100 people would end up not being able to read and write them sufficiently well.
That in its own way seems overly optimistic for the kanji learning success rate.
Kind of makes it sound even more unlikely than the English version.
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - bodhisamaya - 2009-06-08
Any article that perpetuates the idea that learning kanji is an impossible task for Westerners makes those who actually do become literate look even more impressive to native speakers. Ham it up! Tell people you spent 30 years (or however old you are), seven days a week, eight hours a day studying kanji to become this good
harhol Wrote:True, but it's not like RTK is some obscure secret hidden away in the darket corners of the internet. It's the most famous book ever written on learning kanji and one of the most famous in the history of language learning. Just look at the number of Amazon reviews to get an idea of its popularity. You can't go anywhere on a Japanese forum without hearing about Heisig (usually negative comments, admittedly) and naturally following the leads would inevitably lead to the discovery of SRS. The tools we use aren't hidden away, it's just that the majority of people reject them without ever giving them a chance. You can see this, again, by looking at the Amazon reviews of RTK.I think the popularity of RTK is a recent Internet phenomenon. When I first discovered this site back in 2007, I was living in Nara. I went to all the book stores I knew of in Nara and Kyoto and I couldn't find RTK anywhere. I went to Amazon.com and the only copy that was for sale was an out of print copy the seller was asking $100 for. I returned home to Hawaii and couldn't find it at any of the bookstores here either. Hawaiian press should donate $1 for every book it sells to ファブリス
I would love to see the Amazon book ranking for RTK prior to kanji.koohii
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - vosmiura - 2009-06-08
JimmySeal Wrote:も is used in affirmative sentences to emphasize an unexpectedly large quantity. In negative sentences it means "not even." In this case I believe 100人に1人 is the subject of 終わる, which is in the affirmative.Yes, but doesn't the も go with the できない clause here?
まさに地獄の苦しみであり、100人に1人も充分には漢字の読み書きができないまま終わるだろう。
Anti-kanji-learning article (in jpn & eng) - danieldesu - 2009-06-08
vosmiura Wrote:That makes a lot more senseJimmySeal Wrote:も is used in affirmative sentences to emphasize an unexpectedly large quantity. In negative sentences it means "not even." In this case I believe 100人に1人 is the subject of 終わる, which is in the affirmative.Yes, but doesn't the も go with the できない clause here?
まさに地獄の苦しみであり、100人に1人も充分には漢字の読み書きができないまま終わるだろう。