RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds)

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - Printable Version

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RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2006-12-13

Hi all.
I am about 1/5 of the way through the Onyomi's for all of the kanji presented in RTK1 and am learning them through a combination the same as the one presented on the site here; first onyomi (only) study, then compound study.

its becoming really hard to find appropriate compounds though for all the kanji that I am putting in. does anyone have a premade list at all of a 熟語 compound for all the kanji represented in RTK1 at all? its a real pain for me to select a word.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - colonel32 - 2006-12-13

I'd love to see such a list.

What are the arguments against supplementing your vocabularly by learning selected compounds from a list like this when you learn the kanji from RTK1?

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - laxxy - 2006-12-13

colonel32 Wrote:I'd love to see such a list.

What are the arguments against supplementing your vocabularly by learning selected compounds from a list like this when you learn the kanji from RTK1?

I tried that -- I made a list of compounds to study along with RTK1 (so that when a new character appears, I would add some compounds with it and the other characters that I already know). I do not consider it a huge success, it was slowing down the progress through RTK too much I think. You can come back to the compounds after RTK1.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - Hyland1 - 2006-12-13

I'd love to be involved with making such a list. The idea of memorizing pronunciations for kanji outside of a compound that actually has that pronunciation seems like a bad idea to me. Though of course that is just for me, other people may thrive on such a such a system. 人それぞれだね。
I think after finishing RTK1　(again.... sigh...) that I would like to study with a set of flashcards that look like this
FRONT

しゃ真

BACK
写真
しゃしん
Picture
カメラで写真を撮ってください。

Or, depending on the software you used to make the cards you could do multiple faces for each card. If we could get ten or twenty solid contributors doing ten or so new cards and checking ten more every day we could be finished by february even if we included rtk3. Of course we would have to figure out a few things first but its worth a shot. Mail me if your interested.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2006-12-13

I am studying using Stackz. therefore there are no "front" and "back" sides, instead 4 "sides" which you view one after another. this is how i am studying:

1. [English]
・～な　useful; beneficial; 《教訓的》instructive.
・～に　usefully.
・～に使う　make the most [best] of; utilize; use〈a thing〉to good purpose.

2. [漢字]
有益

3. [ひらがな]
ゆうえき

4. [Usage, Examples]
～に有益である
of service to
～にとって有益である；《be ～》
useful to

examples and meaning come from "Goo 事典" and "ALC"

i find compounds by using WWWJDIC. for the above example, the compound was selected from a list by searching: 益 (P) this brings up the most common words using 益.

like i said, I have a list of 140 or so compounds to date. it is a very time comsuming process to search for a suitable compound and then gather information on it. any help in creating a custom "Remebering the Kanji" compound list would be great.

I am aware that there are compounds in RTK2, but I would rather make a custom list tbh.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2006-12-13

Hyland1 Wrote:I'd love to be involved with making such a list.If we could get ten or twenty solid contributors doing ten or so new cards and checking ten more every day we could be finished by february even if we included rtk3. Of course we would have to figure out a few things first but its worth a shot. Mail me if your interested.

ok, lets get the ball rolling.

I already have an excel file with all the kanji from RTK1 from the "remembering the Kanji" Yahoo group. it is complete with kanji, onyomi, RTK1 frame, RTK2 frame, English "keyword".

I also have an edited version of that excel file with compounds put in for each of the kanji's onyomi from ア to オ with some カン as well. it has English translations and example sentances (where necessary)

it will be good if we got a certain amount of people involved and then assign a specific range to each person. e.g. person 1 could do サ - セ onyomi's or it could be arranged in frame numbers. what ever works best.

when all the compunds are collected together, we can decide as a group if a particular compound is suitable or not.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - Hyland1 - 2006-12-13

Great. First, some questions.
1)Can I get that excel file from you?
2) If we build on that file will it be easy to convert it to a file that can be used by stackz or some other flashcard program?
3) Do we have a certain level that we want to use? I have a book full of example sentences but they are aimed at upper level students that would be excellent but I don't know what other people think. Also, as an aside, I'd be careful with ALC, its a great tool but it has many mistakes . Mostly in the English side granted, but in the Japanese as well.
4) When we assign sections should we assign them like in a giant group to be done at the person's leisure or in bite size chunks? Should we also assign a group to be checked?
5) If we use software with multiple faces, or even if we don't for that matter, we should decide on a pattern? I think the cards should be as clean as possible. Though some flashcard software lets you decide what data you'll see so maybe this is something that should be left to the individual.
6) Finally should we open a "dummy" account on this homepage and add our stories to the kanji? It is sort of unrelated but some people may appreciate it and we may get some feedback.
All for now-
Hyland1

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2006-12-13

in responce:

1) I'm at school now, when i get home, ill edit the excel file and get it sent to you.
2) For Stackz, it is very easy to convert an Excel file into one that can be used by stackz. im not sure about other programs.
3) Level should be relative. if a compound chosen is not rare or used in a particualr context, that level of "difficulty" should be used. Example sentances could even be left out if that makes things easier. users could then add their own at a later date.
4) this is the tough one. dependant on how many people we get involved and speed that people work etc. it is gonna be hard to assign work. there could be a section on the shared file which you can put a note on to say which section you are working on to avoid duplication. e.g. next to each kanji with onyomi ショウ, i could put "Yorkii - In progress" so that no one else works on compunds for these kanji.
5) again, this is down to the user to interpret the data anyway he chooses.
6)thats an idea, I was personally thinking more of opening a small yahoo/google group or something.

yorkii

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - Hyland1 - 2006-12-14

Ok, all sounds good to me. Two final points.
1) The holidays are upon us. I am going back to the states for xmas/new years so won't be able to do any serious work till early January.
and
2) Example sentences is something that I am very interested in having. I am going to put them in. If someone wants a different one than can always paste over it.
I look forward to getting your file and getting to work.
Best
hyland

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - synewave - 2006-12-14

Hi...sent Hyland1 an email but no response as yet so thought I'd fire a post up. The idea seems pretty good to me. The example sentences are what I'm into too.

It's been talked about on other threads but the way I'm going about the readings is to relate kanji I've learned via RTK1 to words I already know. A collaboration might not be as advantageous as doing it alone...but the major advantage is it will save a lot of time. So I'm up for it.

I've got quite a few 'traditional' word cards made up similar in format to Hyland1's first post just need to get them into Excel.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2006-12-14

ok, i have made the group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTKjukugo/

ill upload my files later. to protect the files that we will all be using, the group will not be public. by this i mean you have to get permission to join the group. i know this may sound like i am trying to lead things and prevent people from helping but my motives are completely opposite. i dont want people messing with this project. i hope you can see the logic. this does not mean that you can't join, by all means lets get this file finished and agreed on in rapid time. So, the more the merrier.

synewave>

I also try to put use kanji compounds that i already know. but with my limited vocabulary it is often difficult.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - CharleyGarrett - 2006-12-14

I've jumped over and joined the Yahoo group so I can help too, fwiw.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - leosmith - 2006-12-14

yorkii Wrote:does anyone have a premade list at all of a 熟語 compound for all the kanji represented in RTK1 at all? its a real pain for me to select a word.

How about the RTK2 list of compounds? I think someone posted the first 500 or so at the yahoo users group. So many people have talked about building that list, maybe someone has made more progress.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - synewave - 2006-12-15

yorkii Wrote:I already have an excel file with all the kanji from RTK1 from the "remembering the Kanji" Yahoo group. it is complete with kanji, onyomi, RTK1 frame, RTK2 frame, English "keyword".

What do the blue entries in that spreadsheet mean again?

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - leosmith - 2006-12-15

synewave Wrote:What do the blue entries in that spreadsheet mean again?

If that's my 'ol spreadsheet, they are RTK2 "signal primitive" kanji, meaning they have a common primitive that gives a clue to their onyomi reading.

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - synewave - 2006-12-15

Cheers leo, for both the sheet and the reply!

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - Hyland1 - 2006-12-16

Sorry, I was out of town for a few days. I am going to jump over, see how the yahoo group works and then post a few sentences from the book I want to use (日本語分野別　重要単語１５００). Best to everybody
Hyland

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - synewave - 2007-01-10

Over on the yahoo RTK jukugo group I just posted a file, RTK2EveryFrameWithSomeExampeSentences.xls (kind of self explanatory really.

What I'm doing is continuing to learn readings from vocab I already know then adding it into the spreadsheet so that eventually I will know how to read every character from RTK2.

It's not all my own work though, I started off with the sheet built by Chutohanpa on the normal yahoo RTK group.

Cheers,

RTK 2: 適当な熟語 (relevent compounds) - yorkii - 2007-01-10

yea, the group is still in its early stages. i went home to England for the holidays and im just settling back into japan, my job and studying. ill get back on it over the weekend.