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+--- Thread: Slight hurdle.. myself. (/thread-2990.html)
Slight hurdle.. myself. - Gingerninja - 2009-05-02
I don't know if im suffering post RTK1 blues or not, but i cant seem to sit still long enough to "learn" anything.
although all i think about is Japanese, I listen to nothing but Japanese music, watch japanese tv/movies (i have another dvd series arriving on tuesday.. and il be downloading more shows this weekend) i am busy playing a jrpg (in japanese ofc) and i've signed up to beta test a japanese MMO. so going by the AJATT method, im not doing anything wrong, but i don't actively feel like im learning anything.
im reading my grammar book and understanding everything i've come across so far, listening to the Jpod's that i downloaded before my free week expired, and understanding everything.
i just can't get into this sentance method at all. and its negativly affecting my learning. too many distractions possibly. I am picking up things here and there and recognising / learning Kanji in context and knowing them upon sight.
Am i just being paranoid and not letting this process work for itself? anyone else have this problem or had it and worked through it?
Possibly once i get my SRS running and get myself into pattern-habit ofadding/reviewing again il be ok. but as is i feel like i've spent the last 2 weeks since finishing RTK1 and not really done anything but watch lots of Japanese TV shows.
Its probably all in my head, im too hard on myself i think. >< anyone can relate?
Slight hurdle.. myself. - harhol - 2009-05-02
You are making note of any words you don't understand... right? And looking up sentences which contain them? And reviewing those sentences? Watching, reading & listening is useless if you aren't acting upon it. And it's only been two weeks! It took Khatzumoto 18 months and he was doing it 24 hours a day while also surrounded by Japanese friends. Don't be a 三日坊主...
Slight hurdle.. myself. - rich_f - 2009-05-02
2 weeks and you haven't mastered the language yet? You fail.
First, lighten up and relax. You're in this for the long haul, so have more patience. If you've just started immersing your brain in Japanese language, then understand that it's going to take a while for your brain to get used to hearing it all the time. It doesn't just happen overnight.
Now, go download Anki right now. Watch the screencasts on the website, figure out what it does, how it works, then sit for a minute and have a good think about how you want to make it work for you, because you're going to be using it a LOT. (About an hour or two a day for ... well ... for the rest of the forseeable future.)
But don't overthink it, either. If you wind up making it so you need to fill out 100 fields to add one card, you'll never add any cards to your deck. Keep it simple.
Then just add cards to your deck. Pick sentences that have concepts you want to learn. (Be it vocab or grammar points.) Don't make them too hard. Keep them easy at first. Don't introduce too much new "stuff" all at once, because otherwise you'll fail them too often, and you'll get frustrated.
Also, keep the sentences short, or else you'll get bogged down.
Then just do your reviews when they come due. Not really much else to it. Add new cards when you can, and feed the beast. Keep watching stuff, keep listening to stuff, try reading stuff when you can. Eventually you'll get better and better. Be patient.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - Tobberoth - 2009-05-02
SRS is what gives the most "bang for your buck". Add 100 sentences and you will have learned at least 100 new words. Watching several hours of Japanese TV actively will teach you Japanese too but it's much harder to put a quantity on it. Did you learn any new words? Did you learn some new way of expressing yourself? Did you better your pronunciation? Hard to say. 100 facts in an SRS is 100 facts though, the progress can't be denied.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - nac_est - 2009-05-02
The right question is: are you having fun, apart from this thing worrying you? If the answer is yes, I say just keep doing it. Forget about learning. You'll surprise yourself when you're least expecting it.
[If you really can't stand doing sentences don't do it. You're immersing yourself pretty well anyway.]
Slight hurdle.. myself. - rich_f - 2009-05-02
There is that, too. If you don't like doing sentences, or you don't think you can stick to it, then it's not worth the headache. If you need "fun" to keep you doing it, then you should probably avoid doing sentences for now.
But that said, using an SRS and doing sentences has helped me a lot, because it kept me focused and helped me to remember stuff I have already learned and should already know.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - jonny_wonny - 2009-05-03
I feel like that too... but I'm only on day three of my sentence phase sooo...
But still, I can't get these readings to stick. It's discouraging. The kanji were much easier for me...
But yeah, as rich_f said, we're in this for the long haul. It's okay to suck. In fact, I'm proud to suck at Japanese! Yeah... I guess.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - harhol - 2009-05-03
If readings are causing that much trouble you could always try the 'Kana + pic -> Kanji' method.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - phauna - 2009-05-03
Just don't do a lot of sentences at first. Perhaps add five sentences a day. See if that is too boring. It should take about ten minutes to add them, perhaps five minutes to review them. Five sentences a day is a tiny amount, but it is still 1750 words a year.
Of course I think you will find that five sentences a day is not very challenging and so you might start to add ten a day, perhaps twenty. You'll see you level of tolerance, just stick to that, keep adding something each day even if it's not much, over time it will add up.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - rich_f - 2009-05-03
There are a lot of different approaches people use to learning how to read kanji. I use Kanji Odyssey and sentences, and I don't worry so much about memorizing on- and kun-yomi so much. I let exposure just take care of that over time. Some people have used Kanji in Context, or other kanji books. (I can't name them all off the top of my head, but there are many people who have tried many different books.) Other people have done Alyks' movie method and had success with it. Others have done RTK2, still others have experimented with memory palaces and such.
To be honest, I think any approach will work as long as you stick with it. No approach will work, no matter how great it is, if you don't do the work. All of these approaches will require roughly the same amount of effort, the difference is how well they sync with your learning style.
In my case, I prefer sentences to single words, because I prefer context over isolation. I have trouble studying words in isolation. I find I have higher fail rates on cards with just single vocab words on them. When the words are in a sentence, I understand them better. So I do sentences.
I prefer brute force memorization over trying to create pictures in my head, because after doing RTK1, I already had enough pictures in my head. Since my long-term retention rates using brute force with sentences were ~96.5%, I didn't see the cost/benefit analysis of the extra effort of building an elaborate memory around a word I can remember without it. So I just let repetition work for me.
But those are my preferences, based on my experiences, and figuring out what works for me, and what I like. Other folks may have better retention of single words, or feel like sentences bog them down, so they don't go with sentences. Or they may have bad long-term retention using only brute force memorization, so they may need some sort of memory aid, or maybe they're just really good at creating really vivid images for common words. So that's why you need to take some time to try some stuff and experiment a bit. See what you like, see what works, see what doesn't, draw conclusions, go from there.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - Matthew - 2009-05-09
^ Excellent post.
To the OP, I think you're trying to bite off more than you can chew at this point. Find some textbooks that work for you, create some flashcards, and learn things one small step at a time.
Just sheer exposure isn't necessarily going to help you learn anything. I have known people that have spent YEARS in Japan, but despite the massive amount of exposure, they really don't understand anything. In fact, in the very first Japanese class I took at university there was a woman who lived in Japan for three years but was literally no better off than any other first-year student starting off from scratch. Similarly, even among the "lifers" I have met, their Japanese ability remains mostly frozen in time at the point that they stopped studying.
To this end, I've found that for the vast majority of people, AJATT is largely ineffective for actually learning new material. Its main usefulness is in understanding real-world applications for material you already know.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - Gingerninja - 2009-05-09
Thanks for the words of encouragment guys.
little update. Got my sentancing under way. Using Japanese Sentence patterns for effective communication to get some grammar and vocab. Even if the choice of words to start with seems a little odd. 建築家 ? as a complete beginner is that even neccessary to know yet.. but i digress.
Just reviewed about to add more.. 40 / 45 correct first time . Surprised myself a little
I'm a little worried that the readings may only be coming up easy as im recognising the full sentence and not just the word. so obviously proccess of elimination does some of the work. I guess i'll just have to wait until i see the words in context, altho the chances of coming across 栄養士 in the things i watch and read are a little slim.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - harhol - 2009-05-09
Words like 建築家 and 栄養士 are no less valuable that more common words imo. The only words I'd make an effort to avoid as a beginner would be flowery adjectives like the Japanese equivalent of mellifluous and pulchritudinous. Vocabulary related to well-known occupations will always be useful.
Slight hurdle.. myself. - rich_f - 2009-05-09
The 建 in 建築家 shows up in a ton of building and construction-related words, although not always with the same reading. 建物 vs. 建設する, for example. It's still handy to know, and you have to start somewhere.
The 家 in 建築家 is as common as dirt. It shows up in 漫画家、作曲家、etc.
In 栄養士, the 士 shows up in 弁護士、剣士、and a bunch of other words. The 栄 is somewhat useful, too. It shows up in 光栄. 養 shows up in a bunch of words as well: 休養、養成、and 教養.
So while these words may seem useless now, you're slowly building foundations for later "A-ha!" moments when you'll see those kanji again. And you'll have at least one guess for the reading.